NaterMania

I think you're right. I think I was factoring in doing another 200m and 2 100m which did not happen because I was already pretty well worked.

Hey slizzardman,

I am reading and informing myself about strength training and all related subjects every day and following many of your posts. However, as I am only 17 I have limited time (school work...), so want to know which books would you say helped and informed you the most with strength training and nutrition. I have read your post on pre,mid and postworkout nutrition, tried it out and it improved my regeneration and muscle growth like crazy.

I really want to get a wider and deeper understanding of all this stuff, so which books would you recommend? at the moment I have "the poliquin principles" by charles poliquin, "starting strength" by mark ripptoe and some of pavels books, but none on nutrition. Moreover I would like to know, how you can remember all of this information you are giving us in your posts and how you organise all the stuff you read. I think you wrote somewhere, that you are reading up things at least an hour every day, but how do you remember, use and organise these tons of information? by the way is strength training your hobby or does it have to do anything with the degrees you are doing? I hope that is the right place to ask these questions, as they refer to the biggest influences on your training knowledge.

thank you for all help, Horst!

I have a powerful and accurate memory, I remember 70-80% of everything I see and hear. It's not perfect, but it's a lot more than most people have. I am trying to make the most of it.

I simplify things as I understand them better, and that frees up more space for memory, so to speak. I guess I know how to actively program my memory.

As for nutrition books, I'm not sure that there really IS one that is super great all around. Nutrition is honestly very simple. When you break it all down and look at all the plants that do this and that, you will find out that pretty much all greens have similar general effects and so on. Your body can only metabolize 7-10-ish grams of protein an hour, and 37% of that will be turned to sugar. Very little gets stored as fat because of the enzymatic processes involved. So if you have a whey protein solution that's 30-40% glucose or short chain maltodextrins you basically eliminate that 37% loss, and as long as you limit your hourly absortion to what your body can actually handle, you will get superior results. 90+% of fat can only be stored as fat or burned for energy (in which case the body will not be using body fat unless there is something of a calorie deficit, at least at first), which is why limiting your fat intake makes dropping bodyfat easier in general. There ARE other ways, but in terms of working WITH your body's built in physiology that's the most intelligent and least stressful method. With carbohydrates things seem complicated but they really aren't. I don't remember the percentages of how they get used, but I believe it's 30-40% of intake will be stored as fat because the body uses a certain amount to build amino acids and a certain amount for energy. At that point it's just making sure that your excess carbs don't quite surpass the energy burned at rest over the course of a day or week. If you do that, you WILL lose bodyfat. Period. Remember that 70% of resting metabolism comes from body fat. At some point I will write a book on this, because it really is hard for people to understand what the hell is going on with their body when you don't have the basic physiological numbers to work with.

There are other ways to get great results, but they tend to be more of a hassle and/or more expensive and pretty much never cheaper. At any rate, once you know and understand these rules (which, by the way, are for a reasonably balanced diet which basically means not eating 2000 extra calories). Obviously gross excess will be stored as bodyfat at a higher percentage that what I stated, but even then there are limits. All excess absorbed fat will get stored as fat, period.

That's why it's easier to get fat on fried foods than baked or roasted/broiled foods, although people can and do accomplish this as well.

I'd have to source at least 6 different books just to cover everything in those paragraphs and that's crap. I will not recommend any nutrition books at this time because I don't see any that really give the whole situation to you. Robb Wolf has a book out and I have not read it so I have no comment on it. I would check it out though, he has a reasonably balanced opinion on things.

Sliz, if I remember correctly (lol), you suggest about 20-25g of protein (as well as other macronutrients) every 30 minutes after a workout. That's putting it not 100% correctly, I know, but since the human body can only absorb about 7 grams of protein an hour, isn't it a bit of a waste or is the body's response to protein different after a workout?

Cool thing about the memory, by the way. I spend time daily training concentration and memory skills... thankfully it is something that can be taught, or at least trained.

Edit:

By the way, for a research project I'm doing: You say you have a powerful memory and that you remember a lot of what you experience. Do you also find it fairly easy to mentally visualize images, scenes, or anything visual? For example, imagining you are in a building: being able to walk around and do things without losing focus of where everything is or losing the image.

Thanks!

Yes. The way I learned anatomy was by constructing the body in my head and stripping away the muscles mentally to see everything else. It's like having a 3d model. I see the muscle fibers, I can make an exploded view and I see the force lines during movements.

Yea, the 30g of protein is a bit much now that I know more. Like I said, i am always learning. There IS a different response after exercise but you still can only handle so much. Anabolic process are upregulated temporarily but I would think that more than 15-20g per hour is somewhat wasted. Still, I do what my body asks me to do. I have downed my regular 3 liter shake with 50g protein and 15g carbs in an hour before, and wanted more. Usually I do not, so that does tell me something is very different. I do not know the specifics and that would be pretty hard to figure out. You would basically want to see if your protein makes you fart. If it does you're getting too much because some is getting fermented in the intestines and that is what is causing the gas. From there you slowly reduce the amount until you find what doesn't make you fart. Crude but effective!

slizzardman said:

Your body can only metabolize 7-10-ish grams of protein an hour

The studies are all over the place on this on. Some support the theory while some have shown that as much as 30 grams can be absorbed in one sitting. I think that the absorption rates has a lot to do with activity levels and carbohydrate/fat intakes (which you mentioned in your post). That was my take on it after going over a few of the studies.

I've noticed some rules you follow in your diet but I'd be curious to know what general rules you have found give you the best results.

Well, your body can and will absorb pretty much whatever you give it, with a certain percent of actual absorption, but absorption isn't what I'm concerned with so much. I'm looking at how much protein our bodies can actually use for anabolic purposes as opposed to gluconeogenesis or direct energy utilization and basing numbers off of that.

I've seen studies that have found that consuming all of the protein for one day at one sitting dramatically spikes protein utilization, and I believe the reason is that when you eat that much meat you pretty much have either extended the normal absorption timeline or you have actually saturated the blood with amino acids for whatever period of time the absorption period lasts (should be 4 hours but it's going to be longer with that much meat. I believe that can be extended up to 12 hours but I might be off on that figure).

To me, that saturation level is what we want to maintain. It takes less whey to do this than any other protein, and whey's cheap to begin with, so to me that is the way to accomplish the goal most efficiently! Dilute whey until it meets your needs (your protein cravings are constantly satisfied and you are not farting more due to the protein). The farting is what will let you know what your current absorption limits are, there's no sense in going past that because that's wasting money.

You know, so far my best results are coming from 2 scoops in 2-3 liters of water with 15g dextrose. I still go through that every 4-5 hours on average I'd say, and it doesn't make me fart excessively, so I'm riding that absorption line for the most part.

As far as other stuff goes, I have definitely found that keeping fat fairly low most days is very helpful. I pretty much never surpass 100g and I basically don't have any storebought meat anymore unless it's grass fed or free range (chicken and eggs). Lots of veggies, and I'm going to start blending them. I did that with greens and it was phenomenally good for me, I noticed a huge difference so I need to start doing that with all the veggies and see how I feel. My buddy has been doing that with ALL his food for the most part and he says it makes a noticeable difference for him as well.

You view point on nutrition has changed fairly radically, Slizz. Are you planning on updating the perfect workout nutrition thread? I'm following it very closely, but I don't want to waste protein powder.

You're not getting more than 100g fat?!? How are you getting enough to eat? Assuming you get 8 hours of sleep per 24 hour cycle, you'd get about 7g protein per waking hour, and that would only be about 112 grams a day... How can you grow on so little? I'm getting around 250 grams of protein (in doses of about 25-35g every two hours or so except when around meals), 150 grams of fat, and less than 100 grams of carbohydrates. I don't get gas, but my digestion isn't very good. I'm going to go through a glutamine load this week, though, so hopefully that will help.

Please elaborate on how you're managing to grow with that diet. It sounds quite strange.

By the way, I'm planning to make some sprouted wheat bread soon. I'm excited about experimenting with it!

slizzardman said:

Well, your body can and will absorb pretty much whatever you give it, with a certain percent of actual absorption, but absorption isn't what I'm concerned with so much. I'm looking at how much protein our bodies can actually use for anabolic purposes as opposed to gluconeogenesis or direct energy utilization and basing numbers off of that.

I've seen studies that have found that consuming all of the protein for one day at one sitting dramatically spikes protein utilization, and I believe the reason is that when you eat that much meat you pretty much have either extended the normal absorption timeline or you have actually saturated the blood with amino acids for whatever period of time the absorption period lasts (should be 4 hours but it's going to be longer with that much meat. I believe that can be extended up to 12 hours but I might be off on that figure).

To me, that saturation level is what we want to maintain. It takes less whey to do this than any other protein, and whey's cheap to begin with, so to me that is the way to accomplish the goal most efficiently! Dilute whey until it meets your needs (your protein cravings are constantly satisfied and you are not farting more due to the protein). The farting is what will let you know what your current absorption limits are, there's no sense in going past that because that's wasting money.

You know, so far my best results are coming from 2 scoops in 2-3 liters of water with 15g dextrose. I still go through that every 4-5 hours on average I'd say, and it doesn't make me fart excessively, so I'm riding that absorption line for the most part.

As far as other stuff goes, I have definitely found that keeping fat fairly low most days is very helpful. I pretty much never surpass 100g and I basically don't have any storebought meat anymore unless it's grass fed or free range (chicken and eggs). Lots of veggies, and I'm going to start blending them. I did that with greens and it was phenomenally good for me, I noticed a huge difference so I need to start doing that with all the veggies and see how I feel. My buddy has been doing that with ALL his food for the most part and he says it makes a noticeable difference for him as well.

That's some interesting stuff especially since back 50-60 years ago you got lean by reducing fat intake for shows not carbohydrates normally. Those guys had no problems going to below 10 percent. Of course today the norm is 6 percent and below.

Patrick Smith said:

You view point on nutrition has changed fairly radically, Slizz. Are you planning on updating the perfect workout nutrition thread? I'm following it very closely, but I don't want to waste protein powder.

You're not getting more than 100g fat?!? How are you getting enough to eat? Assuming you get 8 hours of sleep per 24 hour cycle, you'd get about 7g protein per waking hour, and that would only be about 112 grams a day... How can you grow on so little? I'm getting around 250 grams of protein (in doses of about 25-35g every two hours or so except when around meals), 150 grams of fat, and less than 100 grams of carbohydrates. I don't get gas, but my digestion isn't very good. I'm going to go through a glutamine load this week, though, so hopefully that will help.

Please elaborate on how you're managing to grow with that diet. It sounds quite strange.

By the way, I'm planning to make some sprouted wheat bread soon. I'm excited about experimenting with it!

I know, it's pretty crazy. I did the same thing with my workout scheme and that's how I get the ridiculous results I get. You simply have to go by what your body wants to do. I can grow on so "little" because that 112 grams is equal to 214 grams from meat and 326 gams from veggies! I also have it virtually all day long so I am constantly healing. I drink 16oz of nonhomogenized whole milk before bed and that helps immensely too! I am also making 2 gallon batches of kefir now out of the good grassfed nonhomogenized low temp pasteurized milk and it's delicious so that's going to start being a regular part of the diet as well! All of that will help, but I really do get very little protein compared to most. The trick is that my body is getting all it can actually use for anabolic processes and that's the difference. There is no waste and no peak/trough cycle. It's a steady state of protein saturation.

slizzardman said:

(...) because that 112 grams is equal to 214 grams from meat and 326 gams from veggies!

Do you mean that whey protein is that much more usable than the protein in meat?

You're constantly sipping protein throughout the day, but what do you do at night? Do you take a bigger load before you go to bed?

Regarding the milk, I'd love to drink the raw goat milk from my family's goats, but as I've mentioned, I break out badly. I'm starting an research project about what about raw milk actually causes acne, why it causes it in some people and not others, and if there's anything someone can do to change it. In my very preliminary skim of some articles, it looks like a lot of the commercial cow milk (if not all) is taken from pregnant cows. The pregnant cows milk has a different (forgot the details, something to do with sebum) hormonal makeup, and human body's absorb it differently. Do you have any insights about this?

Patrick Smith said:

slizzardman said:

(...) because that 112 grams is equal to 214 grams from meat and 326 gams from veggies!

Do you mean that whey protein is that much more usable than the protein in meat?

You're constantly sipping protein throughout the day, but what do you do at night? Do you take a bigger load before you go to bed?

Regarding the milk, I'd love to drink the raw goat milk from my family's goats, but as I've mentioned, I break out badly. I'm starting an research project about what about raw milk actually causes acne, why it causes it in some people and not others, and if there's anything someone can do to change it. In my very preliminary skim of some articles, it looks like a lot of the commercial cow milk (if not all) is taken from pregnant cows. The pregnant cows milk has a different (forgot the details, something to do with sebum) hormonal makeup, and human body's absorb it differently. Do you have any insights about this?

No insight at all, that's news to me!

Whey protein is twice as "usable" as meat protein, yes, and 3x moreso than vegetable protein. Those numbers can be modified a bit with some clever mixing of food sources, but it will never approach what whey has to offer either in performance or price.

At night I just do the whole milk, eventually I'll pick up some casein and put a scoop in the milk, but that's it.

Maybe it has something to do with kidney and liver health... I'll let you know what I can find out about it.

I read up on the pregnant cow milk and it's a female hormone issue. Quite a large one, in fact! Crazy, I never knew.

slizzardman said:

I read up on the pregnant cow milk and it's a female hormone issue. Quite a large one, in fact! Crazy, I never knew.

Yeah milk can have some nasty estrogen issues it seems. Homogenization makes this worse too.

Interesting about the homogenization, but that makes sense since those hormones are fat soluble. Maybe they should put some nolvadex in the milk lol!!!

slizzardman said:

Patrick Smith said:

slizzardman said:

(...) because that 112 grams is equal to 214 grams from meat and 326 gams from veggies!

Do you mean that whey protein is that much more usable than the protein in meat?

You're constantly sipping protein throughout the day, but what do you do at night? Do you take a bigger load before you go to bed?

Regarding the milk, I'd love to drink the raw goat milk from my family's goats, but as I've mentioned, I break out badly. I'm starting an research project about what about raw milk actually causes acne, why it causes it in some people and not others, and if there's anything someone can do to change it. In my very preliminary skim of some articles, it looks like a lot of the commercial cow milk (if not all) is taken from pregnant cows. The pregnant cows milk has a different (forgot the details, something to do with sebum) hormonal makeup, and human body's absorb it differently. Do you have any insights about this?

No insight at all, that's news to me!

Whey protein is twice as "usable" as meat protein, yes, and 3x moreso than vegetable protein. Those numbers can be modified a bit with some clever mixing of food sources, but it will never approach what whey has to offer either in performance or price.

At night I just do the whole milk, eventually I'll pick up some casein and put a scoop in the milk, but that's it.

Slizz, just curious what aspect of whey you are refering two that is twice as usable than meat? Are you referring to its anabolic potential, it's BCAA ratio or something similar?

I've also read about the pregnant cows, but also dairy science that show that the tiny amount found in milk is not biologically active. There are fear mongerers on one side, and industry apologists on the other - so I do feel the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It might be a problem for guys with very low T, but probably not the majority ... something along those lines. That's my take on it anyway!

Read about biological efficiency values.

Long story short, whey has the most of all the important amino acids that are used for multiple purposes, thus ensuring the most is available for muscle building.

Let's say we have chairs that are made with part A, B, D and G. Then we have a table made of parts B, C, E and F. Then we have a couch made with parts B, D, Y and Z.

If I give you equal amounts of each part, you are going to have a whole bunch of leftover parts because there isn't enough part B or D to make all of everything. Well, there are more important things in our bodies than muscles! Blood cells, both red and white. Enzymes. Creatine to be synthesized. And much more! So, there are certain amino acids that represent parts B and D. Whey happens to the most of the multipurpose parts that get quickly depleted, thus allowing the most to be done per gram of protein.

That's the easiest explanation I can think of.

As for the milk, I think it depends heavily on how much you drink as well as how genetically sensitive you are to estrogen. I have only read two articles, so I don't have a complete perspective on how serious this can be. I am inclined to think there are much bigger problems out there, but it's still not nothing.

slizzardman said:

Read about biological efficiency values.

Long story short, whey has the most of all the important amino acids that are used for multiple purposes, thus ensuring the most is available for muscle building.

Let's say we have chairs that are made with part A, B, D and G. Then we have a table made of parts B, C, E and F. Then we have a couch made with parts B, D, Y and Z.

If I give you equal amounts of each part, you are going to have a whole bunch of leftover parts because there isn't enough part B or D to make all of everything. Well, there are more important things in our bodies than muscles! Blood cells, both red and white. Enzymes. Creatine to be synthesized. And much more! So, there are certain amino acids that represent parts B and D. Whey happens to the most of the multipurpose parts that get quickly depleted, thus allowing the most to be done per gram of protein.

That's the easiest explanation I can think of.

As for the milk, I think it depends heavily on how much you drink as well as how genetically sensitive you are to estrogen. I have only read two articles, so I don't have a complete perspective on how serious this can be. I am inclined to think there are much bigger problems out there, but it's still not nothing.

Sounds good. I've seen 25% higher quality than meat but not 100%. That is a pretty huge difference!

Sipping it the way you do, may reduce the potential for gluconeogenesis, and add further to its efficency

Yea, it's something like 50% higher than egg, which is the next closest food protein in terms of BEV. BCAA content has a lot to do with that.

About the milk... http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/site/mil ... d-insulin/

quote:

"Also, if you believe that drinking milk will smooth you out before a contest because of its estrogen content, consider that the average man produces 136,000 nanograms of estrogen each day, far more than you’d get from drinking several gallons of milk."

So theoratically, it shouldn't hurt anybody, right? But I'll definitely will cut it out of my diet when my whey arrives.

hey slizz would you mind posting a quick synopsis of your daily meal plan? I think it would be a great help to me and others as well. Oh and what type of whey do you use is it an unflavored version? One last question in your magical protein mixture are you using all powder or can the carbs be a whole food source? Are there any good substitutes for the dextrose?

sorry to be a pain!

Basic meal plan is as many veggies as I can stand eating, currently being blended together into an unappealing yet super-digestible mush. You don't have to do that, just veggies is good. I'm experimenting with a few minor variations.

Other than that I have sweet potatoes and brown rice as actual bulk carb sources and the protein mixture is the majority of my protein, sometimes all of my protein. Dextrose can be replaced by pretty much any carb source you want, but keep the .3:1 ratio of carbs to protein. 15 grams carbs for each 45 grams protein is plenty. Keep in mind that should be a source that can be diluted into the protein mixture if you're trying to do what I am doing. It could be maple syrup for all I care lol!

.3:1 ratio... do you follow that ratio? Because I think you said that you get about 115g of protein a daily sometimes which would mean you get about 35g of carbs a day. That has to be wrong, though...