My Current Focus: HBP/PE2

I got these 3 quotes that talk about the benefit of deloading from a forum called "weaker after deload weeks?".  

Mark Schoenhard said:

Not being a gymnast and practicing gymnastic strength I fully trust the program.  I feel one needs to be practicing this program several years before fully understanding deload.  Deloading helps the body restore and recover to prevent injury and promote gains.  Being injured is being weak.  Be careful.

dynamo said:

If you haven't been doing these exercises for very long or with high enough intensity there's a good chance you have not neurologically adapted to the movements.  To keep the neurological patterns developing you s/ grease the groove modestly in between workout sessions and even during your de-load week.  Don't over do it, just enough to keep learning the exercise, so maybe short static holds / low reps, depending on the exercise, once or a few times a day.  Remember you don't want to cut into your strength when it's time to gb it.

Keegan said:

Are you still progressing on the 3rd weeks of your microcycles?

Also, on a scale of 1-10 how intense would you say your Deload weeks are? It could also be that you in fact aren't fully recovering during your deload week and thus when you attempt the next week's set/rep template your body has not yet had the time/rest it needs to supercompensate, especially if you are really pushing it and working close to your max capacity fairly regularly.

Maybe try significantly decreasing the intensity of your deload weeks to the point where they just feel like "practice" and not "work", or even reducing the intensity of your 1st and 2nd weeks of your microcycle (if you are working close to max capacity on those as well as your 3rd week). Also pay attention to your nutrition, rest, and recovery modalities as a weakness there could be inhibiting your body's ability to adapt.

Hope this helps and you can figure this out.

 

This is a great short read, titled "Quick Deload Question", on Deload and maybe having to scale down if necessary.

When you do the 1/2 volume on the off days do you do just the push-ups or do you also do the Xiaopengs with it?

How's your cardio? I've found that adding in two to three runs of a mile and a half or so every week to really improve my anaerobic abilities. You're not going to be able to complete the reps unless you have a decent amount of cardiovascular "infrastructure" to clear away the lactic acid etc.

I'm also guessing there may be a mental block going on for you here, I had them before with the old SL/PE1 and it really is demotivating. Only thing to do is just grit your teeth and get through it one rep at a time.

Week 2/4-b: 8, 8, 8, 8, 8

Happy with form.

-Nash

Hi Nash,

I am not sure if you have experimented with less frequency or not. Sometimes I progress better when I perform an exercise with a week in between.

What is your current schedule? I would try having the push up at the start of the workout and do all F7 in one day. Then do H1 the next day or day after. Then you could try to find an optimal time of recovery days before you do F7 again. You could be someone who needs more recovery. You may be spinning your wheels because the muscles have not recovered and had a chance to get stronger. If you do not improve simply add another days rest.

Shoulders have a lot of muscles and they recover at different rates. I found on a four day split I was not recovering as my shoulders were doing some work in each session, plus thoracic bridge work . Last week I had 6 days between my F7 workouts and felt so much stronger. In my mind I want to train daily, but my body likes the extra rest.

You can always increase the frequency again if it doesn't work.

Giving yourself new neurological adaptation might help as well. Get a cheap basketball and perform a set of 10-15 push-ups on that. The balance aspect forces you to use certain muscles that might not be firing as strongly as they could be. It mostly helps with correcting imbalances because both sides have to be working evenly for your to be able, to do a good push-up on the ball.

Or if it's a mental fortitude issue then you can try making a mental promise to yourself that if you don't finish the required numbers of a set, that it's not complete until you finish those last few reps +1. Then let that be the final baby set.

The answer could be much simpler and you just need more rest. Take 1-3 days rest can make a night and day difference

Hi Nash 

I'd like to see the video where you're screaming and bitching whilst doing this PE 

Pretty please?- just to check your screaming and bitching form is good 

Links would be great to go through if anyone has any to post. 

This article has helped me out in the past.  It's actually on when not to deload, but that's a pretty relevant topic for me.  It also includes some good descriptions of the basics.  http://www.ericcressey.com/strength-training-programs-4-reasons-deload

I also have the ebook mentioned, "The Art of the Deload".  Although it's not free, it's definitely an excellent resource.  It describes a bunch of different deload strategies (half of which I'll probably never use), but within the descriptions are some gold nuggets.  There's also an interesting section on training frequency.  On the other hand, the magic bullet "here's what works whenever you're stuck" is just not in there.

Mark Collins said:

Hi Nash,

I am not sure if you have experimented with less frequency or not. Sometimes I progress better when I perform an exercise with a week in between.

What is your current schedule? I would try having the push up at the start of the workout and do all F7 in one day. 

Thanks Mark. Great advice.

I'm on 3 day split.  Below is the most recent experiment that I've done for a few moths (before current one):

Week1:

Sun: No exercise.

Mon: No exercise.

Tue: FL/PE3, sPL/PE5, SL/PE1, SLS/PE4

Wed: HS/PE12

Thur: MN/PE2, HBP/PE2 (Pushups), RC/PE3

Fri: FL/PE3, sPL/PE5, SL/PE1, SLS/PE4

Sat: HS/PE12

Week 2:

Sun: No exercise.

Mon: No exercise.

Wed: HS/PE12

Thur: FL/PE3, sPL/PE5, SL/PE1, SLS/PE4  

Fri: MN/PE2, HBP/PE2 (Pushups), RC/PE3

Sat: HS/PE12

So on one week, I do pushups after a 2 day rest, on the next they come in on Fri. I get the same results for both.

The current experiment is the same schedule as above, but on Sun, Mon and HS days I do 3x6 pushups and on deload, I do 2xMAX SETS. On pushup days increase one from the week before. I started at a base of 7 reps. I'm on week 3/4 so 5x9 reps for this week. Hoping to hit 5x10 reps after deload week.

The only time that I've ever made progress with these was achieving 4x12 after hardcore GTG (>100 pushups/day) for a month. But I could never got beyond that.

My gut feeling is telling me I need to train my muscles for endurance. Currently, at failure, I'm feeling a debilitating pain around my shoulders and tricep area. When summoning all my strength to go through that pain, I get in a rep with bad form and super high pressure on the wrists.

So if what I'm doing now (MAX reps on deload with easy GTG on non pushup days) doesn't work, I'm probably going to try an endurance based model.

-Nash

LateStarter@46 said:

Hi Nash 

 

I'd like to see the video where you're screaming and bitching whilst doing this PE 

 

Pretty please?- just to check your screaming and bitching form is good 

I'm trying to maintain some leftover dignity here! 

-Nash

I was being jokey (about 90% of the time   ) - but since you say you get pain at failure, I totally retract that request. Pain is bad. Rooting for you to get the 5x15r soon 

If that's the current schedule, you're really doing a 5 day split. You might want to try putting HS training on a foundation split day. So you have 3 full rest days throughout the week that you aren't doing anything. HS can take alot out of you. And doing HS isn't really rest for the pushing muscles. You're probably over training for where you're currently at strength wise.

You are working the shoulders everyday. Although you are not doing bent arm pressing daily, you are using the rotator cuff everyday. Also H1 is shoulder intensive. I assume you are still doing dislocates.

I would try to change your structure so you have more rest days on the shoulder as I don't think you lacking effort.

Week1:

Sun: No exercise.

Mon: No exercise.

Tue: F7, start with HBP.

Wed: HS/PE12

Thur: rest day

Fri: F7, start with HBP

Sat: HS/PE12

Week 2:

Sun: No exercise.

Mon: No exercise.

Tue: F7

Wed: HS/PE12

Thur: rest

Fri: Rest

Sat: HS/PE12

Or

Week1:

Sun: No exercise.

Mon: No exercise.

Tue: FL/PE3, SL/PE1, SLS/PE4, MN/PE2, HS/PE12

Wed: rest

Thur: HBP/PE2 (Pushups), RC/PE3, sPL/PE5

Fri: rest

Sat: FL/PE3, SL/PE1, SLS/PE4, MN/PE2, HS/PE12

Week 2:

Sun: No exercise.

Mon: No exercise.

Tue: HBP/PE2 (Pushups), RC/PE3, sPL/PE5

Wed: rest

Thur: HS/PE12, FL/PE3, SL/PE1, SLS/PE4, MN/PE2

Fri: rest

Sat: HBP/PE2 (Pushups), RC/PE3, sPL/PE5, HS/PE12

This way your shoulder has more rest days, but you are getting the same volume over two weeks. If you are doing thoracic bridge this is also shoulder intensive and will eat into your recovery.

^mark summed it up best.

Two handstand workouts on the first saturday?

vinca_minor said:

Two handstand workouts on the first saturday?

likely a copy / paste typo

Mark Collins said:

You are working the shoulders everyday. Although you are not doing bent arm pressing daily, you are using the rotator cuff everyday. Also H1 is shoulder intensive. I assume you are still doing dislocates.

This way your shoulder has more rest days, but you are getting the same volume over two weeks. If you are doing thoracic bridge this is also shoulder intensive and will eat into your recovery.

Thank you so much Mark. F7 is a nightmare for me time-wise and physically. Do you think this would work:

EVERY WEEK:

Sun: F6, start with HBP.

Mon: No Exercise.

Tue: SLS

Wed: F6, start with HBP.

Thur: HS/PE12  

Fri: SLS

Sat:  HS/PE12

Basically 3 days off for shoulders every week.

Yes, doing dislocates front and back. 10 reps each between wrist workout and HS.

-Nash

Are you especially pressed on time on Tuesday/TThursday?

If not, then you might as well just split into the recommended Foundation Split routines. SL,MN,SLS really don't take much time at all and all you need is a basic core and hips warmup

I would try that and if you are not progressing try an extra day rest for the shoulder.

vinca_minor said:

Two handstand workouts on the first saturday?

Cut and paste error.

Mark Collins said:

I would try that and if you are not progressing try an extra day rest for the shoulder.

Perfect. Thank you so much for putting the time into this.

I'm going to do a few more weeks of what I started and if I stall I will incorporate this.

-Nash

I'm also stuck on HBP/PE2. I can do weeks 5,6,7 just fine... but as soon as I move up to week 9, I just can't knock out 4x12. I've been stuck for ~4 months! The first 12r I can do, but starting at about rep 4 on the second set, my shoulders just feel wasted. I can eek out 12r, but then on the third set I can only do ~8r. So frustrating!!

Week 3/4: 9r, 9r, 9r, 9r, 9r

Form was great and it didn't feel as hard as the 5x9 that I tried on Week 1/4.

Next week is deload with Max sets. Excited to try that out.

Nash said:

Thanks Mark. Great advice.

 

I'm on 3 day split.  Below is the most recent experiment that I've done for a few moths (before current one):

 

Week1:

 

Sun: No exercise.

Mon: No exercise.

Tue: FL/PE3, sPL/PE5, SL/PE1, SLS/PE4

Wed: HS/PE12

Thur: MN/PE2, HBP/PE2 (Pushups), RC/PE3

Fri: FL/PE3, sPL/PE5, SL/PE1, SLS/PE4

Sat: HS/PE12

 

Week 2:

 

Sun: No exercise.

Mon: No exercise.

Tue:  MN/PE2, HBP/PE2 (Pushups), RC/PE3

Wed: HS/PE12

Thur: FL/PE3, sPL/PE5, SL/PE1, SLS/PE4  

Fri: MN/PE2, HBP/PE2 (Pushups), RC/PE3

Sat: HS/PE12

Hey Nash, I would go by the book (login to the Foundation Series) when it comes down to the split routine.  Here (Cycle Examples) is a reminder, which states that sPL/PE's is supposed to be a workout before HBP/PE's.  I feel it especially helpful with incorporating 'Hollow Back' at the top position during pushups (kind of like muscle memory intro before the storm).  

Nick Roy said:

If that's the current schedule, you're really doing a 5 day split. You might want to try putting HS training on a foundation split day. So you have 3 full rest days throughout the week that you aren't doing anything. HS can take alot out of you. And doing HS isn't really rest for the pushing muscles. You're probably over training for where you're currently at strength wise.

I agree with Nick.  Before the change there was talk with putting HS training with F3 side of the split routine (core and legs).  Some would say go do HS before F3, others say to do it after.  I do it afterwards for it seems to work pretty well with core and legs well warmed up (especially with legs helping pump blood throughout the whole body (I'm sure I'm not the only one sweating bricks during leg routine)).  

Nash said:

Thank you so much Mark. F7 is a nightmare for me time-wise and physically. Do you think this would work:

 

EVERY WEEK:

 

Sun: F6, start with HBP.

Mon: No Exercise.

Tue: SLS

Wed: F6, start with HBP.

Thur: HS/PE12  

Fri: SLS

Sat:  HS/PE12

 

Basically 3 days off for shoulders every week.

What I like about F7 is that you have time for your shoulders to recover from sPL (there are the 3 routines before getting into HBP).  This is based on the actual order of F7 (based on my notes):

Foundation 7

FL, sPL (emphasis on shoulders), SL, MN, SLS, (time when shoulders get to rest, unit…), HBP, and RC 

Then do Handstands the next day (or take a day or two off before getting into Handstands) and rest some more before F7 again.  

But as you said, and I agree that "F7 is a nightmare for me time-wise and physically".  I personally did F7 throughout April and although it didn't take a toll too much physically, it seems to be a combination of the two (time and physically) that got to me.  For me physically, I felt it was taxing my energy reserves (and I'm not sure if it's just in my mind, but I felt skinnier in comparison to splitting the routine and having more energy and feeling fuller (great pump and blood flow throughout veins on arms (my focus as I see my veins from biceps (and not just the one long noticeable vein, additions have formed (inside(short head of biceps)) thanks to GB training) down to my forearms) and less exhaustion throughout my body)).  I know the last sentence is too long, I was lost in thought and I was writing really late.  (as I thought about it I decided to wait until I woke to post this instead of posting @ 3:13am…  I'm sure some of you who are following would be pissed if your email went off during your sleep.  I'm surprised I was able to be up at this time in thought, oh yeah I took a long nap during the day.)

Some mention that F7 is for when executing lower rep range vs. endurance.  Not sure if they meant for Foundation 2, 3, and/or 4.  But from "my journey" so far, F7 isn't a few months on end during Foundation 1.  Again so far managed to do a month of it recently and won't be doing it again for quite some time.  

Update: As I just woke up, not too long ago, my thoughts was on F7 vs. Split.  This is week 2 for me and I'm thinking of executing F7 this memorial day.  

I checked my notes, that 'skinny feeling' was an optical illusion as I looked at my videos at that time.  As I thought about the F7 from waking up, my upper body has more than enough time to recover 'shoulder wise' to finish the remainder (push/pull) at the end of the workout.  Enough talk, time for FOCUS from within, no distractions, except for maybe an audiobook to listen to.

Another reason for me stopping F7 was a minor sprain on my left arm…  I'm FULLY recovered now.