My Current Focus: HBP/PE2

Dropping SL/PE1 focus thread because SL has been revised.

I've been stuck on these for a while now. I'm able to do 4x12 sometimes. The last few reps in the last set are usually very questionable.

I'm going to start a grease the groove strategy for these.

The minimum is going to be as follows:

Before leaving the house in the morning 12 reps.

Once I get to the office in the morning 12 reps.

Before leaving the office for lunch 12 reps.

Once I get home for lunch 12 reps.

Before leaving home to the office 12 reps.

Once I get to the office after lunch 12 reps.

Before leaving the office in the evening 12 reps.

Once I get home from the office 12 reps.

Everything in between or before going out at night is a +.

Starting this tomorrow and will report back every week or two.

-Nash

I don't know what it is with these, but the perceived exertion of knocking out a given number of reps seems to vary from session to session more than with other movements. Sometimes a 21/15/9 warmup for PE 3 is no problem, othertimes it gets close to exceeding "moderate".

Mentally I have found that entering the "quality zone" (crisp reps without thinking about the 65 still remaining) and counting in sets of five helped.

As far as programming this was one where the high volume push at the end of the structured seasion did seem to pay off. Also, doing 21 consecutive reps once in a while made a few sets of 15 seem more doable.

i'll be keeping an eye on this thread. I just re-restarted Pushups and i'm currently working the week 5 block, 4x6, it actually felt -easy- this time around. so we'll see where the road block is once i make it past deload.

I started F1 being able to do 4x12 fairly easily, and 4x15 is usually not a problem, but 5x15 kills. (On a good day I can finish the set but the cadence slows down a lot and I may have to hold the top position for a bit to rest.) I tried backing off to do the second cycle, then the third, with no more success. Then I spent a cycle going after 5x15 every workout. No success. Then I spent a cycle or two working up to 7x12 (maybe 8x12, can't remember). Still couldn't do 5x15 at the end. I've spent the past two cycles doing them with a 50lb pack. On Monday I managed 3x9, then 5, then 3. Tomorrow I will retest for mastery and I'll let you all know how it went. I suspect that the 5x15 rep scheme, 1-2x/week, is not enough stimulus to drive adaptation for me. Hopefully the extra load allows me to bust the plateau the way weighted pull-ups helped me bust my pull-up plateau in the past. 

Sven Ravnstag said:

I don't know what it is with these, but the perceived exertion of knocking out a given number of reps seems to vary from session to session more than with other movements. Sometimes a 21/15/9 warmup for PE 3 is no problem, othertimes it gets close to exceeding "moderate".

Mentally I have found that entering the "quality zone" (crisp reps without thinking about the 65 still remaining) and counting in sets of five helped.

As far as programming this was one where the high volume push at the end of the structured seasion did seem to pay off. Also, doing 21 consecutive reps once in a while made a few sets of 15 seem more doable.

I found the best psychological tool for me with these is to use memory-of-one (I just invented this term).  It usually yields the best quality reps and I feel like I'm truly hitting a physical limitation when employed as opposed to a mental one.

It works like this: only think of the previous rep when doing the current rep. So, do rep n and confirm to yourself that it was very manageable and with good form (as it should be). Then, when doing rep n+1, only think of rep n and how easy it was. 

This removes the thoughts of I have x reps left or I did x reps and I still have y reps.

p.s. I can see Coach and GB athletes rolling their eyes. It's OK. It's OK.

In for the results!

What I did the past few months to conquer this:

75 push ups as fast as I could.

Once I got to ~3 min I did 15x5 with 30 seconds rest and then 20 seconds.

Then I did 14x5 and finally 15x5. 

Of course after I mastered it I realized the IM was supposed to be on both sides and I was only doing one at a time 

Nash said:

 

p.s. I can see Coach and GB athletes rolling their eyes. It's OK. It's OK.

I was stuck for a long time like you, except at 4x15, sometimes managing it, sometimes not. I stepped back to 4x12 and didn't push for it two mini-cycles. Went fine, I can do it quite easily now. Going to test 4x15 next week and hope it works. If not, I'll probably start GTG and also something I did for ABH, which is always do a mastery set at the start of the exercise, whatever rep schemes I am at the moment.

I've been stuck on these as well, since the release of foundation

Currently I'm going on elevated push-ups (knee high) with breaks between sets. ATM the next weeks would look like this:

4x15r

4x15r + break(60s) + 12r

4x15r + break(60s) + 15r

The iM became easier when I learned to lift the weight with my upper traps. That way the shoulders get less taxed on iM, and it works more of a "rest" for shoulders. I'm using 3kg (6,6lbs) weight for these

Also one thing i started doing is high frequenqy/gtg -style: increasing the amount of pushups by 1 per day.

Like, on day 1 i did 5 pushups throughout the day, day two i did 6, etc. I'm now at 55, and can really feel my technique improving and becoming more economical.

Earlier I've been just trying to do the normal foundation schedule, first with floor and then regressed to elevated. With these the progress is at least somehow visible

What worked for me was doing some monthly cycles of 4x15, 5x15, 5x15 as 4x12 wasn't doing much for me and I felt I always regressed a bit on that week. You have to be stubborn. Good luck.

Currently at 4 x 9, sometimes I can do them, sometimes not. Good with tips from the pros!

So today I did 15-15-15-13-9 (unweighted) after two cycles working up with the weighted pack, which is roughly comparable to my 15-15-15-15-8 which I did after a cycle working up to 8x12r, which is roughly comparable to the 15-15-15-12-10 from a cycle of just doing 5x15r every HBP workout, which is roughly comparable to the 15-15-15-13-7 after starting over back at week 5 and working through the second two microcycles, which is roughly comparable to the very shaky 5x15r (i.e. sub-mastery) I managed at the end of my first microcycle of F1. In other words...

Microcycle 1, new to GB: 5x15r (but shaky)

Microcycles 2-3, starting in week 5 and working up to Week 11: 15-15-15-13-7

Microcycle 4, repeating mastery attempts each HBP workout: 15-15-15-12-10

Microcycle 5, repeated sets of 12r working up to 8x12r: 15-15-15-15-8

Microcycles 6-7, starting at week 1 with a 50lb pack: 15-15-15-13-9

Microcycle 1: 75 reps with shaky form

Microcycle 2-3: 65 reps

Microyclce 4: 67 reps

Microcycle 5: 68 reps

Microcycle 6-7: 67 reps

Mean score on Week 11 HBP test workouts: 68.4 reps (slightly oversimplified, but that's the gist). If I set the value of the untested microcycles (2 and 6) to that of the the next test, the mean score is 67.7 reps. Either way, essentially no meaningful progress. I see three basic possibilities here: (1) I'm close to my genetic potential; (2) my recovery is too poor; (3) stimulus is inadequate. I am skeptical of (1), as in my life I've exceeded 60 push-ups in an unbroken set. I'm skeptical of (2), as I sleep 7-9 hours pretty much every night, eat well, and managed plenty of progress in multiple fitness goals across this time period, which seems inconsistent with poor recovery. (It is definitely possible I'm doing too much, but I'm not yet ready to throw aside all my other upper body strength goals in favor of bodyweight push-ups.) I'm inclined to think that the issue is (3).

I don't think that the issue is inadequate overload from the individual workouts themselves, as I push very hard in all of them and am usually gassed by the end. Instead, I suspect that the issue is inadequate frequency: push-ups 1-2x/week is just not enough to make things happen. 

Next cycle, I plan to maintain the same weighted-pack strategy, but also to do some extra push-ups (maybe 3 max sets?) on my F1 non-HBP days. That will give me 3 push-up workouts a week. Any thoughts?

Next week I am going to start a new micro-cycle.
What I did the last micro-cycle was:
Week 9: 5x10 instead of 4x12.

Week 10: 5x13 and after a short break I did one more set of 10 reps.

Week 11: 5x15 as required but it didn't go so smooth and on the last set my tempo broke

I will repeat a micro-cycle but this time it is going to look like that:
Week 9: 5x13 (maybe take a short break and do one more set of 12)

Week 10: 5x14 and after a short break one more set of 14 or 15

Week 11: 5x15

I make sure that when I do this, I take no extra half second for a break. Do push ups, jump up and grab a dumbell, do Xiaopeng Fwd, after I'm done with them, instantly go back down and do push ups.

Massaging shoulders with massage ball after training helps to recover really well. Also, high reps of shoulder dislocates after each session (currently doing 15 - 20 reps with 2,5 kg/5,5 lbs). Don't know if this really helps but shoulders feel A LOT better if I do dislocates.

I'm extremely satisfied with F1. Nevertheless, I find that the 15r Mastery Template is odd for HBP/PE2. HBP/PE2 is the exact opposite exercise of RC/PE4 (Elevated Row) which involves the 10r Mastery Template !

Why are the Mastery Templates not the same while these are exactly opposite exercices ?

For instance, Pullup is the exact opposite exercise of Dip. In the Foundation Series, Pullup Mastery Template = 5r and Dip Mastery Template = 5r too !

Should RC/PE3 and RC/PE4 involve the 15r Mastery Template ?

In my opinion they do not share the same mastery template simply because they are preparatory elements for completely different exercises. You simply cannot compare HBP and RC because you work on both of them separately.

Vytautas Pilkauskas said:

In my opinion they do not share the same mastery template simply because they are preparatory elements for completely different exercises. You simply cannot compare HBP and RC because you work on both of them separately.

That is not really an answer. The answer to the question would be the underlying intentions about HBH and RC and their differences. But I cannot answer that either.

we have smaller pressing muscles than pulling muscles. so putting a little more pep in their step and having that extra bit in tank to contract and hold it will, i think, help. I toy with a lot of theories in my head when it comes to anatomy, so i may just be overthinking it...but it does kind of make you wonder.

Week 10: 15r, 15r, 7r, 6r.

Note: I haven't completely assimilated the routine above into my daily routine. Missed some days. Others only remembered to do half. In a week or two it should be completely integrated into my daily activities.

Have you felt the routine affecting your recovery in any way or impeding the normal F1 workout? Sure seems like a lot of reps you will be doing day in day out?

I say this a lot, but if this plan falls through (I'm totally rooting for you but if) then definitely consider running a steady state cycle.

Micawberian said:

Have you felt the routine affecting your recovery in any way or impeding the normal F1 workout? Sure seems like a lot of reps you will be doing day in day out?

I say this a lot, but if this plan falls through (I'm totally rooting for you but if) then definitely consider running a steady state cycle.

It's too soon to tell at this point, but I've been thinking of not doing this on the days where I have HBP. My workouts are at night and by the time I start I'd be 90 reps in already.

Thanks man. I'm just experimenting. If this doesn't show improvements in the next 6 weeks, I'll jump onto something else.

-Nash

Nash said:

It's too soon to tell at this point, but I've been thinking of not doing this on the days where I have HBP. My workouts are at night and by the time I start I'd be 90 reps in already.

Hmm, yea, if I remember correctly, pavel's orignal grease the groove states to lay off the actual work sets. It might interfere badly with your ability to recover every day

After hbp pe2, how would you guys go about maintaining your push up endurance? All I'm doing right now is 15 push ups for warm up and a set of 15-30 after my workout. What would you guys do?

I think the 15/9, 21/15, 21/15/9 template should help out there

there's a way to implement high rep days for joint health, but doing it with PE's is outside the scope of my current understanding.

Keilani Gutierrez said:

I think the 15/9, 21/15, 21/15/9 template should help out there

there's a way to implement high rep days for joint health, but doing it with PE's is outside the scope of my current understanding.

21/15/9 is terrific for pushups.  

I think you're all overthinking this. I got up to 50 reps a few years back doing easy reps for lots and lots of sets scattered through the week.

You could also try going back to a rep count that's easy for you, and upping the sets to get to 75 reps total. After that start increasing the reps per set and let the number of sets taper off as you get closer to 5x15.