My Current Focus: HBP/PE2

The above made me laugh but then I realised that I'll be at seminar soon and would probably get the hair-dryer* treatment. So I cried instead...

:-p

*https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070319172623AA4pAJh

LateStarter@46 said:

The above made me laugh but then I realised that I'll be at seminar soon and would probably get the hair-dryer* treatment. So I cried instead...

:-p

*https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070319172623AA4pAJh

I don't shout.  If I get very quiet in the midst of training, that is when you should become concerned.  

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

As above, no one is gonna have sympathy for 5*15 pushups the sooner you do it, the sooner it's done.

Maybe this struggle has nothing to do with PE2 but has with PE1?

This game with variables (TUT, doubled or trippled sets of fewer reps) doesn't make sense when you think about it. Maybe I'm overthinking but I'll give PE1 a better try and then start PE2 over again at block 2.

Week 10: 15, 15, 10, 6.

When this mini cycle is over, moving away from GTG into some other strategy.

-Nash

Have you tried using a heavier weight for the iMs for a while, then test mastery with the lower/mastery standard weight?

This is one of the tougher iMs I've encountered so far, more like another exercise than rest. Perhaps building a strength reserve here would make mastery easier when you drop the weight back down.

Sven Ravnstag said:

Have you tried using a heavier weight for the iMs for a while, then test mastery with the lower/mastery standard weight?

This is one of the tougher iMs I've encountered so far, more like another exercise than rest. Perhaps building a strength reserve here would make mastery easier when you drop the weight back down.

Hm, it always felt like it was taxing my shoulders, but I never considered that it could be messing with the pushups (I'm at 5lbs.)

On my next attempt I'll replace the iM with a 30 second rest and see how that goes.

Thanks.

-Nash

Good idea; I was thinking the same thing after I made the original post. Maybe consider seeing how long it takes to do the iM with both arms and then make that rest time to get an idea of how the iM impacts PE performance.

If you can do 5X15 (or close to it) with rest rather than iM, it would seem that iM makes the difference in terms of mastery of PE. Not sure what weight you'd have to reach to make the scale back the equivalent to resting (!), but it's worth a shot.

For me, I really felt the move from 10 to 12 pounds. Then I didn't have access to the 12 pound, and had to drop to 10 and it seemed like nothing.

1st week of 4 week cycle.  Pushup 4 by 6, Block2 (started from last 4 week cycle of Block1).  This week I continued the TUT (time under tension).  This time instead of going slow motion all 6 reps, I started having to go a little faster (moderate speed) for I would start feeling the fatigue, and my body would readjust.  That I believe started off on the first set.  Mind you, this is my 2nd time going through this for the week (looking forward to the fresh feeling next week.  Monday's routine of this wasn't as tiring (I have to look back at my notes I wrote on Monday).     This is what I wrote to myself about Monday's PUSH routine (note that ecs is the letter, I'm just missing that letter from drinking at my desk LOL):

"The necst routine was the “Pushup”, it was 4 sets by 6 reps.  Going in slow motion, I felt the activation of where I had to increase the speed for the remaining reps; I believe it was the last 2-3 reps during the last 2 sets.  (Note: I’m going through this form of slow motion from Gymnastic Bodies website.  This is to help me surpass the plateau of this particular pushup and similar slow motion with additional pause for the Hinge Row (talked about necst)).  The “ECSiapeng Forward” is feeling much better in my left shoulder (injury from previous workouts with weights and going fast and furious under CrossFit without having the knowledge, as I now have through GymnasticBodies.com) almost no pinch. "

I'm doing the same for the pull (RC/PE1), with an additional few seconds of pause at the top.  The pauses at the top wouldn't be as long as the previous pause (this is being said about rep by rep).  

Oh and the Mobility side of the HBPPE2-im, I'm not feeling that pinching in my shoulder, it's starting to heal itself (hoping that is the case as it is manifesting).  

So I believe this is helping my joints to get strong.  The proof is in the pudding though.  Will I surpass this plateau at the end of the 4 weeks or will I humbly continue, not from Block 1, but from Block 2, and go from there with TUT (as I'm moving into a more moderate speed as the reps keep coming)?  (my2Centz)

And my arms are feeling pumped throughout all of this.  Thinking, muscles must grow and have a form of activation throughout tension to feel like "butter" after recovery.

sean said:

Forgive me for asking in case I missed it in the postings but I see that there are 3 separate recommendations of cycles to try if someone is having a difficulty with HBP/PE2 in the description. Are people not finding these suggestions effective enough? Has anyone tried them? Results? Just asking as I'm working on this movement at the moment but I haven't hit the wall I know I'm going too at some point. Not sure why all the GTG talk when its already laid out? Nothing against it, just curious, Thanks....

Sean, Save this post for future reference.

Keilani Gutierrez said:

pick and choose at this point. everyone is either coming from a "i've heard of this working" or "i've actually done this" you'll have to be the one experimenting to see which method sticks to your weakness(maintaining mental focus, strength, imbalance in arm strength, which is the weak link in the chain, isolating it, etc)

Keilani, As I'm going through this, I here what your saying.

Nash said:

Week 11 (2/2): 15, 15, 11, 7, 7

Nash said:

Week 9: 12, 12 ,12 11

 

Rep 12 just froze midway and wouldn't complete. Bitch!

Nash, I went through those numbers up and down, periodically as I've been going through this.  Stay tuned, for this is the ending of my 2nd week of the 4 week mini cycle.  After that, I'm back on your block, block3, where most of us are on working towards Mastery.  

Vytautas Pilkauskas said:

Maybe this struggle has nothing to do with PE2 but has with PE1?

This game with variables (TUT, doubled or trippled sets of fewer reps) doesn't make sense when you think about it. Maybe I'm overthinking but I'll give PE1 a better try and then start PE2 over again at block 2.

Hey Vyautus, You may be going too far back, especially if you "Mastered", PE1; jmho.  I'd say try the TUT (time under tension), the details I wrote about it may help (past, and coming up, writings in this forum).

Note: overthinking gets you where you need to go WITH actually doing.  Whatever you choose, enjoy your journey.

Also, you mentioned "variables", are you a programmer?

Okay, here's my further observations:

Note below PE1 says set bar to approximately hip height. Following this guideline I was able to master this at the first go.

Now like Nash and many people out there I was struggling with PE2 for quite some time now and always at the last block, usually at week 10 or 11. Week 9 is too easy for me. So I thought that I lack endurance.

Now what I did: instead of trying block 3 of PE2 over and over again, I did PE1 but I lowered the bar (in my case it is my couch) to knee height. I was pretty confident that I would nail it but I failed to keep correct tempo at 4th set. Now that is something for me I will keep doing it until I master this one completely because I believe that this might be my key to obtaining endurance at week 10 or 11. So it is like a half step from PE1 to PE2. And having in mind that your rest is no more than 7 - 9 seconds (German swings or whatever, I forgot), that should do it.

I think of it as of transition from PE2 to PE3 which is a huge jump. You simply lean as much as you can while not compromising your form and tempo and over time you get to the full PPP.

I will surely let you know if this one will work out. I will start it after the beginning of middle of April because I will have a little toe surgery after which I will not be able to shift any weight on it from angles other than standing.

Week 10*: 15, 15, 11, 7

* did this workout without windmills (but with 50 second rest in between sets). Improved by 1 on the last 2 sets, but I'm not very sure it's related to the lack of windmills.

Next week, I'm going to study my options to see how to proceed with pushups.

-Nash

http://www.sci-sport.com/articles/021.php --> see Table 1. This report shows that HBP/PE1 (60cm elevated hands) is 36% easier than HBP/PE2 while an intermediate exercise (30cm elevated hands - let's call it HBP/PE1,5) between HBP/PE1 and HBP/PE2 is 14% easier than HBP/PE2. HBP/PE1 is 25% easier than HBP/PE1,5.

Which leads me to think that working on HBP/PE1,5 could be a very interesting alternative to avoid to be stuck on HBP/PE2.

Just my 2 cents

I improved on this exercise when i started to do the ims on the same arm after each work set (ie all im sets perfomred first on left and then on right). It also helps to have a small pause and lock out elbows at the top of each rep.

Im close to mastery on this exercise and am using these two tips. One other thing i ensure is that i overload sufficiently before a deload week to ensure supercompensation occurs. For example, after doing 4 x 15 r this week, i did a further 3 x 12.

Nash said:

Week 10*: 15, 15, 11, 7

 

* did this workout without windmills (but with 50 second rest in between sets). Improved by 1 on the last 2 sets, but I'm not very sure it's related to the lack of windmills.

 

Next week, I'm going to study my options to see how to proceed with pushups.

 

 

-Nash

Nash,

Congrats.

Something that made a big difference for me when I was stuck on 15, 15, 15, 10, 10, for what seemed like eternity was to start activating my upper back muscles -- I'm assuming it was the traps -- on the way up.

I don't know how to explain it properly, but essentially, after doing the first 3 sets of 15 reps, my arms and deltoids would lack the strength to power through another two sets of 15 rep push ups.  

By employing the back muscles on the last two sets, I was able to power through 15 reps on the last two sets -- a feat which had proved elusive for about four-five months.

At the time I figured this out, I was about to give up on attaining 5x15 rep push ups (with no rest between sets after the xiaopengs), thinking that it would probably take me 2+ years to get there.

Worth a try.

~Atticus said:

 

By employing the back muscles on the last two sets, I was able to power through 15 reps on the last two sets -- a feat which had proved elusive for about four-five months.

 

Thank you for the tip Atticus.

Did you only do that on the last two sets or on all of them?

Since I'm still doing GTG this week, i'm trying to do that. I haven't nailed it down yet.

-Nash

Nash said:

Thank you for the tip Atticus.

 

Did you only do that on the last two sets or on all of them?

 

Since I'm still doing GTG this week, i'm trying to do that. I haven't nailed it down yet.

 

 

-Nash

Just on the last two sets.

Though, come to think about it, let me try and see how it works for all 5 sets.

If it works out fine, I'll try to "perfect" this technique before moving on to PPP as I think it might come in pretty handy during PE3.

Been playing with this and the feeling is definitely different. When I activate my back, I'm feeling less pressure on my chest and shoulders.

So maybe a good strategy to alternate between back activation and no back activation to spread the fatigue.

Excited to test this out this week.

-Nash

Vytautas Pilkauskas said:

Maybe this struggle has nothing to do with PE2 but has with PE1?

This game with variables (TUT, doubled or trippled sets of fewer reps) doesn't make sense when you think about it. Maybe I'm overthinking but I'll give PE1 a better try and then start PE2 over again at block 2.

I think this may be the key here. Coach often says to take our time and not rush, and I think there is a good chance a lot of us still aren't honest about ourselves when we test for mastery, which then leads to our issues with PE's further on.

I think really slowing down some of the movements as kingzlo is referencing for TUT increase for a PE and again passing the mastery really proves how easy that movement is for us, and proves that we are ready to move on to the next level.

I hurt my wrist a bit with HS work  (PE12/36s) so I decided to skip this workout this week so it recovers. All recovered now, so will be back on these next week.

Week 11*: 15, 15, 9, 6, 6  

GTG didn't help much for me. Next week is deload week, during which I'm going to look over the strategies that different people outlined in this thread and pick one that I think will work best for me.

I tried using my back muscles as much as possible during this and still the front of my shoulders and triceps were burning. I feel like most of the weakness is shoulder related.

One thing I never noted is I've been wearing wrist straps during all this so I don't re-activate an injury that took place about 6 months ago during wrist work. I wonder if they're somehow putting more pressure on my shoulders because of a weird wrist tilt. http://www.amazon.com/Mueller-Fitted-Wrist-Brace-Medium/dp/B0027VGB4Y

-Nash

Your grasping at straws there Nash. Just hang in there, it will come.

Hi Nash, have you posted a video on these (all the sets)? Just in case there's something someone might spot about why your last rep for each is the last.

Hey Nash, maybe an obvious question here, but when you say "15, 15, 9, 6, 6" are you only counting good reps, or good ones and bad ones both? Working through this element myself, I'm on 4x15r this week and my last reps of the last 2 sets are only accomplished after resting in the up position, sometimes after severe piking, and sometimes after completely failing and lying on my chest for a bit. I don't count those as mastery but I *do* make sure that I do them, and I'm measuring my progress against those rests.

btw, I've been following this thread for a while, and a couple things come to mind

-- are you working as hard as you can? I mean really.

-- Are you as unconcerned about your physical discomfort as Coach Sommer would be? Again... Really? (I ask myself this every day...)

-- Curious: how much have you experimented with recovery? If you're working these 3x a week, what happens when you do 2x, or 1x? I went through a several-week period of sickness/laziness/gluttony, and when I came back I was expecting regression, but in fact I hadn't slipped, and came back with more energy (which was quite nice).

-- There are other posts where Coach mentions you can't work both strength and endurance at the same time. Changing form and increasing reps is doing that. An example Coach gave on one of the podcasts he did (I think it was a Robb Wolf podcast) involves planche leans; he mentions people start out with some degree of lean, and as they work the progressions they both increase their degree of lean as well as their hold times. Are you doing the same thing with your pushup work?

-- Have you tried doing pushups first in your day's work? 

-- This is both a physical and mental game. If you're struggling to find the mental resolve to push yourself to your limit (and past your previous limit), you might not be physically overtraining, but you might still need a mental break. I personally know I need a mental break when I'm looking ahead at my upcoming workout with dread, rather than with enthusiasm (thinking of you, ABH ...).

Cole Dano said:

Your grasping at straws there Nash. Just hang in there, it will come.

Almost 1.5 years now grasping at straws*. At least now I'm documenting every step to see where the issue is.

Videos coming up on next attempt.

* I call it persistence.

-Nash