My Current Focus: HBP/PE2

Nash said:

Week 11*: 15, 15, 9, 6, 6  

 

GTG didn't help much for me. Next week is deload week, during which I'm going to look over the strategies that different people outlined in this thread and pick one that I think will work best for me.

 

I tried using my back muscles as much as possible during this and still the front of my shoulders and triceps were burning. I feel like most of the weakness is shoulder related.

 

One thing I never noted is I've been wearing wrist straps during all this so I don't re-activate an injury that took place about 6 months ago during wrist work. I wonder if they're somehow putting more pressure on my shoulders because of a weird wrist tilt. http://www.amazon.com/Mueller-Fitted-Wrist-Brace-Medium/dp/B0027VGB4Y

 

-Nash

Out of curiosity, how come you're doing 5x15r? If you've mastered week 10 (4x15r), surely you should be getting 15r for the first 4 sets here, even if you don't make it to 15r on 5th set.

Alan Tseng said:

Out of curiosity, how come you're doing 5x15r? If you've mastered week 10 (4x15r), surely you should be getting 15r for the first 4 sets here, even if you don't make it to 15r on 5th set.

Hi Alan,

I didn't master 4x15. When I failed it at it months ago, I went back one block to week 5, repeated that block until re-mastered (5x9), then mastered 4x12, then stuck at 4x15. This last experiment I'm just going through the last bock and repeating it as time goes while mixing GTG in.

What I might try out next is breaking block 3 into more weeks than 4. So do something like 4x12, 5x12, 4x13, etc... Maybe start from 4x9 even. Totally open to suggestions.

Also, it seems that this template is set for strength. Maybe add a mix of high reps for endurance. I'm not sure yet. Doing my research next week.

Hey Nash,

  are you keeping track of the overall volume increments in your non-regular progressions?

Looking at your last cycle, it seems to fluctuate a bit:

Week  9: 12, 12 ,12 11 = 47

Week 10: 15, 15, 10, 6 = 46

Week 11: 15, 15, 9, 6, 6 = 51

Basically you're saying at week 10 you're working out overall at lower volume than the previous one, plus you're making it harder because you jumped to 15reps for the first 2 sets.

If the issue is that the regular pattern jumps too abruptly for you (and very often for me too) and you find the default +20% in the third microcycle too challenging, I think you should reduce it, but still operating increments.

In my case, I've got a lot of drills I cannot complete in the given time and I found it too hard to keep track by hand of all the fine tuning required per drill. I just finished writing a small app (yeah I know, quite geeky) plotting for me the supposedly optimal increase for when I'm too weak for Foundation standards.

I find it quite practical, basically I just tell it how many additional microcycles I wanna spend on that progression, and it gives me the "correct" increment for each week, redistributed in sets/reps, with deloading (where "correct" here only means properly distributed).

I'll start testing it next week and see how it goes.

If you want I can show you what patterns it might output in your case if you give me some idea of how much you're willing to add up each week.

Try adding more pushing volume for a short period of time-if you can handle it. One to three sets of slow eccentric parallel bar dips after your push up efforts might be beneficial, for example.  Progress might come quicker from a little more volume/intensity each workout and adequate rest periods between workouts.

Nash said:

Almost 1.5 years now grasping at straws*. At least now I'm documenting every step to see where the issue is.

 

Videos coming up on next attempt.

 

* I call it persistence.

 

 

-Nash

 I was referring to your wrist brace being an contributing factor.

And also speaking from experience, there are times during the struggle when out of desperation we invent all kinds of possible reasons for not being able to do what we want. It's natural. But inevitably when you actually can do it you realise that the problem was simple, not strong enough at the time, not enough endurance etc. And the really important thing was just putting in the time, however long that may be, and letting nature take it's course.

Don't worry, you will get there, you're putting in the right effort.

Cole Dano said:

 I was referring to your wrist brace being an contributing factor.

 

And also speaking from experience, there are times during the struggle when out of desperation we invent all kinds of possible reasons for not being able to do what we want. It's natural. But inevitably when you actually can do it you realise that the problem was simple, not strong enough at the time, not enough endurance etc. And the really important thing was just putting in the time, however long that may be, and letting nature take it's course.

 

Don't worry, you will get there, you're putting in the right effort.

Thank you Cole.  I started this thread mainly to keep those kinds of inventions in check.

Emilianop, Curtis, Alan, and wamarler thank you so much for the tips and questions. They're going to be part of my decision on how to proceed next with this one.

-Nash

Hello all!

This week is supposed to be deload week, but I'm traveling to London for a 5-day consulting gig tomorrow so I thought attempting a 5x15 should count as both deloads for this week.

Things not obvious from the videos: a) my inner arms are brushing against my sides. b) my chest is touching the ground on each rep. c) my elbows lock out at each rep.

I would really appreciate any feedback that might point out why I've been here for 1.5 years.

As for moving forward, one possibility I'm thinking about is go back to block 2 and during deloads, do 2 sets of max reps so I build some stamina. Only move to block 3 by adding 1 rep each week until each is mastered. So block 3 will take double the time probably.

https://youtu.be/knwEVSPCbHI

https://youtu.be/gZDV9XH24NQ

https://youtu.be/LHhfbb1argE

https://youtu.be/KOKQQvIOArc

https://youtu.be/xVgw9lr0EME

Nash said:

...

I would really appreciate any feedback that might point out why I've been here for 1.5 years.

 

https://youtu.be/knwEVSPCbHI

https://youtu.be/gZDV9XH24NQ

https://youtu.be/LHhfbb1argE

https://youtu.be/KOKQQvIOArc

https://youtu.be/xVgw9lr0EME

Hey Nash, here are a few cents from me : ). Your form on every rep (all 5 videos) looks great, though I'm not confidence that I have enough experience to gauge how good your shoulder depression & protraction is. Certainly your posture is fantastic.

3rd set, the video freezes for me at 5s. YouTube shows the progress meter moving, but it's a still frame.

4th & 5th set: my impression is "you give up too easily." While I don't have enough experience to gauge your protraction, I do have enough experience watching Navy sailors at PFT (physical fitness test) time & boot camp to make that judgement. You are not at failure when you "failed." You can  fight your way up on that rep. MAKE THAT REP. If you pike, you pike. If you sag at the waist, you sag at the waist. But MAKE IT. I expect to see your form decline over a series of reps until finally you're totally sagged, after having piked in rest at the top of the previous rep, you're halfway up, and you stall there, pushing for an eternity (like 2-3 seconds) without moving, red in the face, and yelling at the drill sergeant (or Coach Sommer) "I am trying goddamnit!!!" before collapsing. And then, you know what? When you're on the ground moaning, and playing up the theatrics, the drill sergeant (or Coach Sommer) gets in your face and somehow you realize you can get back into the up position, gasping and shaking and kinda sobbing (only kinda ... it freaking hurts and you need him to know how much you're hurting but you're not really going to lose it; when it comes to brass tacks you're not actually at that point), and you're not done: you can lower back down again and get another rep, sagging, shaking, wiggling, piking. OK, not pretty, but you got another rep. Are you at the point when you fail that you're totally broken-down like that trying to get a rep? I don't think so. So: not failure. 

I think this requires a change in mindset from you here, which might explain your plateau. You're plateaued according to one paradigm, and you're stuck in that groove. 

... if you did actually fail more like I describe, but you just cut your poor reps out of the video, my apologies, and I've got nothing :-). Or if you usually do that but didn't this week b/c it's a de-load ... well bad week to film yourself maybe : ). 

I hear these words every time I struggle on a set:

i can't see anything obvious :-( except that you stop rather suddenly instead of each rep getting slower and more strained. I know grinding is frowned upon but maybe you could try continuing the set of 15r as long and as ugly as it takes? Sorry I can't be of more help, but I'm impressed by your god-damn persistence :-)

Wamarler, LasteStarter thank you for the feedback!

It seems 3 set video is messed up, but it's very similar to 4 & 5.

Actually, I worked really hard over the years on adjusting my workout habit where I don't do any non-mastery grade reps.

I attempted something similar to what you're suggesting for two cycles and it went like this: When I failed at rep 7 or 8 for example, I take 10 to 20 breaths on the ground, then attempt to finish the rest. When I did so, I was able to do 8 reps, 10 breaths, 4 more reps, 10 breaths, 3 reps. The idea was do 15 (or whatever master was for that set) at every set no matter what.

Didn't seem to help.

-Nash

only thing i saw out of place was the angle your arms are making in relation to your torso and im sure it isn't a camera effect.

i'd bet money you'd see a change in pushup intensity if you changed where your hands are, but thats only a hunch.

Keilani Gutierrez said:

only thing i saw out of place was the angle your arms are making in relation to your torso and im sure it isn't a camera effect.

 

i'd bet money you'd see a change in pushup intensity if you changed where your hands are, but thats only a hunch.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. Place them under shoulders instead, yes?

I guess I am wrong but do you hold your breath in an accend and release it only when you're in top or do you release it gradually and then just exhaling the last drops of air so powerful? Breathing helps a lot to me with push ups, especially in the last two sets.

I actually elevated my hands about 45 cm and did 4x12 with PE1 mobilty drill between sets so I could make it even more endurance work. And I've got to say it kicks ass more than 4x12 with hands on the floor but with XF mobility drill. Going to master with this height and then I will start do them on one of my 35 cm height parallette. Then make it to about 20 cm or try on the floor finally.

And here's what I also would do: if you are the person who sets himself a goal to "master PE2" but no more details, then write down something like this "Do 5x15 of PE2> iM". Seeing a specific goal makes it easier. I used to do this with Dips in L-Sit when I was doing simple bodyweight training. Before going in to specifics I didn't make much of a progress with them in a tuck L-Sit but after I set it "4x5 L-Sit Dips", they came in 4 months nice and smooth. If you're already doing it like that then my apologies

Zach Armijo said:

...

I strongly disagree to squeak out the rep by way of broken form.

 

...

 

My approach being strongly disagreed with by a GB Coach ... Excellent. Learning opportunity incoming. 

Zach, I'm following & commenting on this thread b/c I'm also working my block3 of HBP/PE2. I do F7 2x per week (Tues & Fri), and H1 1x (Weds). I'm roughly in the same place as Nash; today I did 2x15 well, then 3x9 well, and then 2x6 well (41 total reps). Based on previous deload weeks I expect that next week I will have 5x8r (40 total reps) with good form. 

Presuming I do, how would you schedule my pushup work for the next microcycle? Here's what I interpret from your post:

Sun: HIIT (indoor soccer) 2x5r pushups

Mon: Rest/low intensity steady state walking, 2x5r pushups

Tues: F7; instead of 4x12r pushups do 5x9r

Weds: H1 + 2x5r pushups

Thurs: Walking +2x5r pushups

Fri: F7; instead of 4x12r pushups do 5x9r

Sat: 2x5r pushups

Look right? 50% reduced reps/sets on every off day? It's not clear to me when you'd do 2 sets and when (if ever) you'd do 3 (50% of 5 sets being 2.5 after all...) Would you do 3x on any of the days above, say maybe, Sunday?

Pushing the schedule forward:

How many reps during the second week of the microcycle? Would you try for 5x10r (50 total reps) or go for 4x12r (48 total)? On off days, still 2-3 x 5r (same as previous week)? I'm thinking yes. 

What about the 3rd week? 5x10r (for 50), 4x13 (52r)? 

The week after that would be a de-load week; would de-load week be 5x8r (normal block 3 deload), or would you drop to half of what my current capability was; e.g. 5x5r (supposing 3rd week was 5x10r)?

Thanks! This seems like dissecting your method, but the goal here is to ingest it, apply it to a new situation, and repeat it back to you. If I get it right, then I understand your lesson. 

Zach Armijo said:

Ideally, we would want to move ahead to a 5x12. The hard part is knowing what you are capable of if you fail. It might be appropriate to go to a 4x12 instead of the 5x12.

The dropped 50% is merely for more exposure time without taxation.

Assuming deload is next on your schedule, don't even bother with the off day sets, make deload what it is. It's not going to fit nicely with even numbers and everything convenient, but make your deload easy 5x5s.

There is nothing concrete in this "method". It's more about adapting to adaptation. Like I said, you have to know your perceived and projected abilities very well to apply this. You could always have a 3rd "50%" set, but maybe take it to 4 reps across all 3.

The extra set is perceived from how taxed your regular 100% sets/reps days make you feel. Sore, tight, nothing at all.

Experiment and see what happens. There are few factors that limit you from making steady progress. Form, recovery, injury or form

The greasing the groove method on off days is also for not loosing endurance capacities, especially if total workout volume is low and you do not expose a certain muscle group to endurance strength training more than 2-3 times a week.

I never considered adding in work sets on off days because I thought it would be too much. Seems like I would give it a try!

Zach, your first post should be a sticky though. Many members can benefit from that; to me it really came as a surprise!

LateStarter@46 said:

... as long and as ugly...

Zach Armijo said:

... but I strongly disagree to squeak out the rep by way of broken form..

Thanks Zach, I agree -any bad form esp. kipping, is anathema. By ugly, I meant grimacing, breathing heavy, straining, crying etc.

Nash said:

https://youtu.be/knwEVSPCbHI

 

https://youtu.be/gZDV9XH24NQ

 

https://youtu.be/LHhfbb1argE

 

https://youtu.be/KOKQQvIOArc

 

https://youtu.be/xVgw9lr0EME

By the way, I noticed a few things about your video.  Most glaring one I personally saw was that at the bottom of the pushups, your forearm drifts out way behind the wrists so that your forearms isn't completely vertical.  Try getting elbows directly above the wrists.

I also saw that there's no PPT at all.  Also noticed that when you push, your upper body goes up first rather than the entire body going up as one unit.  PPT may help fix that

How about, doing the selected sets and reps number for a prolonged period of time? If jumping from 4x12 to 4x15 is too much after one week which is 2 or 3 workout sessions, why not do this after, say, 5 sessions? In one case it might be 2 and a half weeks, in other it is nearly two weeks. You go through that overload, load and deload parts and when you feel you're really done with that, move on to the next supposed number of sets and reps, keeping deload weeks where they are and after them just continuing your last workout's before deload week part until you nail it again.

So how it is so that some people don't increase the capacity for months and can't break through 5x15?

What would you, Zach, recommend in this case then:

I was doing this exercise starting at week 9, went up until week 11 and during the 5th set my tempo broke quite drastically after 8th rep. It took about 5 seconds to complete 1 rep, got a few fast breaths on top and then another rep like this. II managed to complete whole 15 but the last set was slow and I gave my all to finish it. I went on mentally. Should I do the same 5x15 after deload week? I once started at 4x12 after deload and they felt even harder than a month ago.

Zach Armijo said:

More likely than not, they are doing something very wrong. Form, giving up to easily, etc...

There is nothing black and white about this. Everyone is different and some might need a different stimulus, frequency or intensity.

I clearly was one of those people who did a lot of things wrong, having spent 15 months on this element, and another 2 months to "streamline" the mastery sets.

But I don't know if I could have mastered it in 12 weeks, even if I did everything right. This is a very difficult exercise.  I mean, just physically, my arms, shoulders, pecs, increased massively over those 15 months, and my body at mastery did not even remotely resemble the one I had when I first began the exercise.

So I agree and disagree with some of  your points.

Zach Armijo said:

Nash,

 

You are somewhat on the right track with total volume, but not hitting the mark with the execution.

 

You need to drop to something you can produce consistently across multiple sets. Set 3 aside from bad video, it seem that set 1 & 2 you were able to do 15r, 2nd set starting to show fatigue already. Then the later sets started to decline rapidly. I would agree with the above that you gave up too quickly, but I strongly disagree to squeak out the rep by way of broken form.

 

This is not an uncommon problem, but one people don't know how to work around. This is commonly seen with hinge rows and chin hangs. The most concerning thing is the sudden drop in reps from 15 to 7 or 8. That's a pretty big loss.

 

I would suggest going at this with 4-5 sets of 9 reps. Do no be concerned with the first 2 sets being easy. If all 4-5 sets are easy and you can do them with form, then try 5 sets of 10r. Do each mini-micro cycle for a week at your usual frequency. What I want to add in for you to do differently is add a 50% set and rep on your off days. So lets say you do 5 sets of 10r. The day after, knock out 2-3 sets of 5r. Sounds stupid right? But give it a shot.

 

Back in the day before the gospel of Sommer was beaten into my head, I was of the mindset of being stronger and ahead of the element meant endurance translation as well. Long story short, I failed arch rocks....miserably at a single set of 42. I had weighted arch ups for mastery easily, so I thought I had Arch Rocks down. Big mistake.

 

The biggest thing about this failure is how I went about fixing it. This was for retesting of .5 and I had less than a full cycle to do it. So I went on training Arch Rocks at my normal frequency, but also added the 50% sets and reps on off days. Needless to say, 5x60r came pretty damn fast. I also applied this to Chin Hangs where it seemed to be stuck at 4x48s. 60s became easily obtainable with the added 2x24s added in.  

 

I contribute this to the constant neural adaptation as well as the increasing strength gains. You learn how to be more efficient in the movement, become comfortable in it even, which is what we want in the end anyways.

 

So bottom line is to find a rep scheme you can complete evenly across all sets, and add a 50% sets/reps on off days. Remember form is king.

Interesting I will give this 50% thing a shot. I actually just failed 4x54 on arm hang today. However, the last 2 weeks I failed the set/reps for the first workouts but managed them on the second. Today I got 2x54, 1x40 (I feel like I gave up too easily on this set) and 1x44. 

Everyone needs to read this article on work capacity (SFW).

An extract:

Finally, just something to keep in mind:  Over time, your total training volume MUST increase.  Most of these suggestions I’ve written about tell you ways to effectively wave volume and benefit from a short-term reduction in volume once you’ve acclimated to SLIGHTLY more volume.  As you progress, BOTH the peak volume you’re handling and the reduced level of volume need to increase.  So if you’re working from 3×3 to 6×3 now, eventually you’ll need to only drop back to 4×3 and increase to 7×3, then from 5×3 to 8×3, etc.  If you’re adding a third workout to two 5×5 days, those days will need to eventually become 6×5 days, or 10×3 days, or some other loading pattern that adds up to more overall volume.  The reason I gave examples of waving volume was that waving helps make the overall increase in volume over time easier to manage.  If you’re plateaued doing 5×5, you can’t just start doing 8×5 and make progress forever (or at all).  The way to add volume is to make the peak volume of a wave higher, and the reduced volume slightly more.  That way, you’re never overreaching too far, you’re still giving yourself a break for supercompensation, and you’re gradually increasing the total magnitude of stimuli your body can handle, and therefore your potential for growth.

 

So initially I had conquered these and went on to HBP/PE3 only to realize I had an extremely difficult time doing that movement with PPT and scapulae protraction and depression. So, I've gone back and am not working HBP/PE2 with as much protraction/depression and PPT as I can manage. Is this correct? I certainly need work on the abilities of my scapulae, however, should I be focusing on this in HBP/PE2 or should I switch back to HBP/PE3? 

I can post a video of my progress, however at present, doing PE2 with scapulae protracted and depressed and PPT has proven extensively difficult even in block 2. More knowledgeable insights are appreciated. Thanks

Please don't be protracto-paranoid about HBP/PE2 ! The scapula should only be protracted at the top. At the bottom it should be neutral. HBP ≠ sPL.

Nevertheless, the degree of depression remains the same : fully depressed scapula.