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alec_ar

German Hang Butterfly To Cross

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alec_ar

The topic directly beneath this one (I think) got me nervous. Somebody injured their sternum doing an iron cross with weird form on aerial straps is the short version of what happened. (I know that I could have posted this in his topic but I figured starting a new one and not bombarding his was the best idea)

I understand that the person was being pretty careless and might not have even been prepared (don't know their training history) for crosses. However it has gotten me worried about a move I train.

Ever since I saw this Canadian kid do a routine on rings (he did a series of elements, one of which involved going through a GH and sort of 'swooping' with momentum to iron cross), I started training a no kip GH butterfly for lack of a better word as inspiration from the routine. It is somewhat similar to a butterfly but obviously much more chest-intensive, and the poster below whose friend injured himself got me nervous when he said that it was a cross with his chest sticking out. Part of the ROM in the GH butterfly has a similar positioning and definitely feels like it puts a lot of pressure on the sternum.

Does anybody have any experience with this move? I've stopped training it entirely until I get some sound advice, I was wondering if this is a really risky move simply not worth the risk...I'm thinking that's the case :) thanks in advance! I can post a vid for a more clear idea as well.

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Joshua Slocum

I'm guessing that the movement you saw was in fact an Azarian Cross which is essentially a felge into a cross. Here is a video:

 

http://youtu.be/2R4G7p2tEOo

 

Is that what you saw? If so, it's a safe movement to train. Though personally I would hold off on training it until I got a full cross.

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alec_ar

Haha thanks, but no, I know what an azarian is.  :)  I wish I could find the video because it was a link posted somewhere on this forum. It was literally he dropped below the rings after a series of elements, and when his arms reached a hyperextended GH angle he scooped back up into a cross with straight arms...So I got the idea to train it without the momentum for the potentially awesome strength gains  :D

 

Here is an older vid of me doing more or less what it is. Since filming it, I've modified the technique (keeping my body at a 90 degree angle to the ground through the pull so as not to start to resemble a Nakayama, and pulling more into a cross and less through a BL)...The first one is the one I'm talking about, the second was my progress at the time on the regular butterfly (obviously) 

 

 

It does cause some uncomfortable soreness and pressure in my sternum though so I think I'll drop it.

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Vagabond

A sternum fracture is a pretty unlikely event, compared to tearing a pectoral, and the attachment of the pectoral giving up. The pressure you feel might be a similar pressure to the one felt by people doing a lot of dips, and if you feel it on a regular basis, it is likely to be inflammation to the sternal attachment of the pectoral.

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alec_ar

You're probably right. For what it's worth, it feels like its mainly pain on and around my xyphoid process, between my pecs on the bone essentially. I've already noticed my breastbone has become sturdier and 'denser' from the training, but I'm planning on calling quits on this exercise. It's a very awkward stretched out postion and requires a lot of strength. Maybe once in farther along with the regular butterfly I'll continue.

I just wanted to check if there was anyone with personal experience with straight arm pulls from GH, so as to gauge whether the exercise is in a fact, a hazard.

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Joshua Naterman

No personal experience here, but shoulder extension + arched upper back = extreme stress on the sternum.

 

If you stay hollow, this is much less of a concern and the primary issue will be the muscle attachments.

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alec_ar

Duly noted! I'll continue with it but take it slow, and work on reducing the arch. I already have since that video, perhaps if I keep my chest down towards the ground more. Idk, I'll make some subtle adjustments and feel the move out :)

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Falcon

It's a Li Ning.

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alec_ar

AHHHH! Thanks Falcon. I believe you're 100 % correct, it's a Li Ning to cross that the kid did. A d skill I guess?

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Joshua Slocum

Press from german hang to cross isn't in the code. There is front-uprise from Li-Ning to cross, but it's a swing skill; no pressing is involved. The Nakayama is a press from back-lever to cross; it's probably the closest thing in the code to pressing from a german hang. 

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andiswf
Press from german hang to cross isn't in the code. There is front-uprise from Li-Ning to cross, but it's a swing skill; no pressing is involved. The Nakayama is a press from back-lever to cross; it's probably the closest thing in the code to pressing from a german hang. 

right ;)

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alec_ar

Yea it definitely is similar to a Nakayama.

Anyways after the fact the gymnasts name finally came to me, here it is. Kinda different from what I remembered as I thought there were more swinging elements, but you guys be the judge, is it like a modified Li Ning? It's at :26 in the vid.

That is the move I'm trying to work towards, but with 2s GH and no momentum.

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Joshua Slocum

What he's doing is somewhere between pressing from GH and swinging through Li Ning. I'd certainly consider what he does to be more of an uprise than a press, but if it's supposed to be a Li Ning then it has poor form. Given the quality of his other work in that routine [heavily piked Victorian, Jonasson that catches in support], my guess is it's supposed to be a Li Ning but he hasn't quite mastered the swing yet. A correctly executed Li Ning is entirely a swinging skill, but he executes a controlled descent from support all the way through back lever. 

 

This is an example of the skill executed with a much better swing:

 

http://youtu.be/ckbB2dWMugM

 

 

All that said, there is no reason why you must limit yourself to officially recognized FIG skills. If you like the 'swoop' from back lever to cross, go ahead and train it. Just be safe. 

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alec_ar

Yeah that Li Ning that you posted is sick! Loove that move. Albeit, his form may be poor, but it was the first time I had seen that and it really caught my eye. Anyway, maybe somewhere down the line, after some serious shoulder preparation, I'll attempt to learn a Li Ning, but my goal is for the slow GH to cross.

And yes, the fact that this, as well as several other moves are not in the FIG has no hold on me whatsoever. Potential strength gains are potential strength gains. :)

One more question: isn't the Li Ning one of those 'excessive swinging elements' that was popular in the '80s and '90s but is largely unseen today because we now know the long term damage it causes to the shoulder girdle? I heard of several swing elements that constitute this, but I'm not sure if Li Ning was one of them...

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Joshua Slocum

One more question: isn't the Li Ning one of those 'excessive swinging elements' that was popular in the '80s and '90s but is largely unseen today because we now know the long term damage it causes to the shoulder girdle? I heard of several swing elements that constitute this, but I'm not sure if Li Ning was one of them...

 

I don't know, but I'd really like to know the answer, because I'm currently trying to learn German Giants on high bar and I wouldn't want to cause permanent shoulder damage.

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andiswf

the key is physical preperation!

 

however, doing too much of these can sum-up to high stress on the shoulders.

 

...for a normal person, also an elgrip or IC is not to handle without serious risk of injury... same with these swings!

sry to point also NORMAL ring swings out! done uncorrect they lead to serious shoulder injury!

 

on rings, for Juniors li ning and guzhogny elements are not allowed for what I think (=only personal opinion) good reason!

 

personally, I dont like li-ning. even if I find creative stuff quite cool (like Vcrosses)....

so I really DO like your goal for the non-swing strength element.. but think it could be way more stress than you think!!

 

edit: I would recommand german hangs and if your prepared: little swings, like the "steineman"-stuff (I did those elements with lots of preperation, and had NO short or long term shoulder proplems from that)

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Joshua Naterman

Wow... Li Ning = the labrum eliminator

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alec_ar

Yea...hahahaha thanks Andy good to hear from a coach about Li Ning. And I know the forces will be high on the strength move, that's why I'm exclusively using the trainers on it now :P

Also, the idea of German giants scared the crap out of me.

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alec_ar
 

So here's just a brief update of where I am with the move. The weather is finally nice enough to resume outside workouts :)

 

 Progress is slow and I'm being cautious to avoid any potential trauma to my sternum with this move. The strength gains have been awesome however, and I can now do multiple reps with forearm assistance.

 

 

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Gssj3

Szilvester csollany do the same but with an inverted cross and this element named csollany

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Joakim Andersson

Sorry to stray from the topic but what are those things you use instead of rings? They look like great tools.

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alec_ar

Csollany's routine was cool, the move he did to invert was some sort of variation of a Li Ning. I think a Li Ning 3 (although don't quote me). The difference here is that, since I don't trust my shoulders to jerk them around like in a Li Ning, I use a no-momentum pull out of GH to iron cross. Makes it so its pure brute strength and not quite so technical :P

As for the equipment, they are Elite Strength Trainers. Pretty awesome tools to build yourself up for advanced rings moves. For example, I have a decent cross on low rings, but absolutely require the trainers for any straight arm moves to iron cross, cause the forces get pretty high :-)

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Joakim Andersson

Cool, those tools have completely passed me by. I'm gonna buy a pair. Thanks and good luck in training :)

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seiyafan

I saw those videos, holy mother shoulder sockets. 

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alec_ar

@seiyafan, yea I don't personally wanna push my shoulders to even try a Li Ning. Not to mention I'm no where near ready in any other way for that anyway.

@jocke_a, I recommend them! Good luck to you as well :)

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