Introduction and some questions...

[Mahmoud Hashem]

Hi, I'm a 21 year old male.

I used to lift and loved it, then I got a spinal injury and long story short my doctor said I can't lift anymore.

So after some looking into alternatives for strength I decided gymnastics was the best.

I play Judo 3 times a week so I have some time off, my current fitness level is well...a little below okay I suppose.

I can hold handstand back against a wall for 40 seconds. Can do 20-30 pushups, 14 chins, 8 pullups, 8 dips, 50 situps, and maybe 50 squats. I used to squat 80 kilos (at BW 70) so squatting I think is the best I can do.

I can also run for 2 miles or so.

Also, I can do the splits and am pretty flexible, as a part of previous martial arts experience.

I can't do handstand pushups or one hand pushups, or one leg squats or muscle ups.

I have Coach Sommer's book.

My biggest problem with starting a gymnastics routine however is that:

When I got into barbell training it was very basic, and programmed for weeks to follow, I always knew I had my 5 rep max because I added enough weight to ensure that.

In his book Coach Sommers mentions different variations of each hold and exercise, as varying degrees of intensity.

Which is great but...how do I know I can move on to the next progression? How do I know I'm not training too easy?

I don't like to rely on feeling intensity because maybe it feels hard but I can push myself harder, maybe I'm just being a pussy.

I like structure and that's why I liked weight training, everything was laid out for me I just had to do and not think. Not much of a thinking man.

Am I making any sense?

I guess what I'm trying to say with this long post is:

Hi, point me in a direction and I will start working.

[Blairbob]

I can see why you are staying away from the barbells given a spinal injury, except...you are doing Judo. :shock:

I honestly would not give up the barbell training but it really depends on what is going on with your back. It might not be worth the risk. OTOH, it might be what you need. Really depends.

That being said, if you wanted a program with some structure look at the bottom of page 175 and top of page 176. This is what the Killroy70 program is largely based on. Prior to that training, work a SteadyStateCycle for the FSP's such as the Front Lever, Back Lever and Planche. Before that work some Handstands and L/Straddle-L work.

Killroy70 is a decent program. I'd argue about some modifications necessary and it doesn't include any lower body work or specific core work.

You will have test on how long you can hold the prerequisite FSP's. These are:

Hang in pronated and supinated grip.

Support on parallel bars or a set of chairs (working towards ring support down the road but not as a prerequisite FSP)

German Hang. This is the bottom of a 360pull/SkintheCat. You might need to spend some time on this if your shoulder flexibility isn't great in this position.

Front plank and Reverse/Inverse planks. These are done with straight arms.

Hollow hold and Superman/Arch hold.

L-sit. Technically a FSP but necessary before any serious work on the other FSP's should be started.

You should be able to hold each 3x for 60 seconds. Honestly, it's not that difficult. That's beginner intermediate level strength. The hollow and german hang are probably the most difficult. The rest of the stuff is advanced beginner level. And the L is harder than the hollow and german hang. It might take you awhile on that one, especially as it's more difficult on floor than on parallel bars, parallettes, chairs, or dumbbells.

Or you could just do the daily WOD. I would still do the prequisites as a Warmup and L and HS work. Both of those will be in the Daily WOD's though.

[Mahmoud Hashem]

Thanks.

Regarding the Judo issue, the doctor said it was fine to play with a belt until my back gets strong, I really like Judo so I wasn't about to give it up.

I have some issues with the vertebrae of my lower back (slippage), I'm pretty sure it was caused by squatting with poor form (arched back too much).

The book BtGB is rather complicated that's why I came here.

Is this what you're referring to?

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1957

[Daniel Burnham]

Thanks.

Regarding the Judo issue, the doctor said it was fine to play with a belt until my back gets strong, I really like Judo so I wasn't about to give it up.

I have some issues with the vertebrae of my lower back (slippage), I'm pretty sure it was caused by squatting with poor form (arched back too much).

The book BtGB is rather complicated that's why I came here.

Is this what you're referring to?

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1957

Yes thats the post. The Kilroy routine is a very good workout, though like Blair said I would at least add some core stuff. Not to be a jerk or anything but 80kg squat at 70kg body-weight is not very high. I doubt that this caused a spinal injury unless you either had a pre-existing or just did it with a super hunched / twisted torso. Usually poor form in squatting affects the hips and knees more than the spine. I'm especially skeptical since you also train Judo.

I would take a look at other weaknesses or posture issues that might put your back at a disadvantage.

[Blairbob]

Weak core? Craploads of good mornings, back extensions, reverse hypers, romanian dead lifts. DB Lunges.

[Mahmoud Hashem]

Well, my doctor said I should stay away from weights.

Oh and I wasn't bragging about my squat my mates squat 200kg and some other scary stuff, I was trying to show where I'm at physically.

And the injury I suspect was caused by squatting with my back too arched for an extended period of time but yeah you're right, could be anything.

Also I haven't been clear. I've been on injury break for a month, during which I did only light exercise and some HS work, so I'm currently not doing Judo or any lifting for that matter. My doctor says body weight exercise is good for me. But I still can't do Judo or lift for the time being (I guess).

This injury break looks like it's going to be a little longer so I wanted to still get strong during using gymnastics, I've been interested for a while but they don't take students my age in my club because the common belief there is that you start gymnastics as a kid.

[Mahmoud Hashem]

Okay I've done as you asked.

Planks were no problem. 60s and could have done more even.

Support on chairs, 40s.

Hang 30 second chin grip 20 pull grip, my problem was fingers giving out.

Superman 60 seconds. Hollow body wow only 10 seconds?.

German hang? Nope, only 10 seconds.

Now what do I do?

I appreciate the guidance.

[dzejkej]

Now what do I do?

Now you do 50% of your max duration for each FSP and repeat it to get 60s cumulatively .

So if you can do 40s max support hold, you will do 3x 20s holds.

[Mahmoud Hashem]

Now what do I do?

Now you do 50% of your max duration for each FSP and repeat it to get 60s cumulatively .

So if you can do 40s max support hold, you will do 3x 20s holds.

And for the German Hang and Hollow Body 12x5s as well?

Also is this my whole workout? It would take a long time to do these holds in sets if I rest a little between sets.

What about the workout after, do I still use the same numbers or do I test again? How often should I test?

Sorry I ask so much but I really don't know much about this.

[Vincent Stoyas]

Pre FSPs don't need to be dine with a SSC.

I would just go until you feel your form start to diminish and then take a few breaths and repeat.

[Blairbob]

the preFSP's is just warmup stuff.

If your holds are 20s, I would do 90-120s of volume instead of 60s. if your holds are 10s, then 60s of volume is fine.

don't bother with a SSC. Just use short rests in between. 10-15s should be enough, maybe 20.

You definitely need more grip strength. More hanging stuff. It'll get stronger the more you hang and pull on things. Especially for judo. You need a BEAST grip.

[dzejkej]

And for the German Hang and Hollow Body 12x5s as well?

Also is this my whole workout? It would take a long time to do these holds in sets if I rest a little between sets.

What about the workout after, do I still use the same numbers or do I test again? How often should I test?

Sorry I ask so much but I really don't know much about this.

Yeah, sorry for misleading information. I was doing the 50% even for those preFSPs, but following the advice of Vincearoo and Blairbob is a way to go.

And it is not a whole workout. Read this sticky (and other linked posts) for more information about how to construct your workouts.

Have fun!

[Mahmoud Hashem]

Okay here's a routine that I put together please tell me what you think...

Workout A

Warm-up

Plank

Reverse Plank

Pullup Grip Hang

Handstand

Hollow Body Hold

Arch Body Hold

Superset

Tuck FL row

PL pushup against the wall

V UP

Legs

Deck Squats

Workout B

Warm-up

Plank

Reverse Plank

Pullup Grip Hang

Handstand

Hollow Body Hold

Arch Body Hold

Superset

Dips

Pullups

Back Raises

Legs

Pistol Squat Negatives

Basically alternate workout A and B 4 times a week, and every workout followed by a lot of static stretching. The superset is going to be 5x5.

What do you think? Is this too little on the legs? I can add GHR negatives.

I made this based on Brady's Rockbottom Program.

My primary goal is strength, size is okay but strength is more important to me.

[Blairbob]

Deck squats are good for conditioning. That's about it. They are only good for strength if you are super weak or like three years old.

SLS negatives are alright. I'd throw in the glute ham stuff in there on one of those days as well.

Even a tall stepup is probably better strength work than a deck squat. Preferably weighted. Find something like DB or milk jugs with sand or water or a weighted backpack.

I generally just would do the prereqs back to back from station to station. Changing stations was sort of the rest since I generally went from support something to hang something to arch or hollow hold, etc. Goes quick and again, it's just a warmup.

[Vincent Stoyas]

Wall PL pushups? :shock:

[Mahmoud Hashem]

Is it okay if I use pistols for both workouts and alternate with sprint intervals and GHR negatives for workout A and B respectively?

[Blairbob]

Yeah.

Since you're doing negative SLS, you are mostly working on flexibility and the skill anyways.

[Mahmoud Hashem]

Really? I was under the impression negatives built strength necessary for the complete movement.

[Mahmoud Hashem]

Wall PL pushups? :shock:

Oh I just want to say thank you for bringing this to my attention.

I thought it was pretty alright to do those then I checked the section on pushups in the book because you were so shocked and I found out I was doing them wrong by having my hands under my shoulders.

Hey thanks for the help man.

[Blairbob]

Negatives do build strength.

However, most people using negatives for SLS pistol versions just lack the mobility in their ankles and knees to do them or the coordination. If the mobility tests out fine, then negatives also help teach the movement pattern as it is odd for most people unless you have been doing that Cossack russian hop pistol dancing thing a long time. It can be a more problematic movement with some peoples bodies due to their natural levers.

For instance, many of the young gymnasts at 4-7yo that I have taught the SLS pistol variety would lack the leg strength to press out of the bottom at first but would quickly master them over a few weeks. For some of them, it was merely a coordination/balancing issues and that can be the case with many adults. Do the movement more often, get more efficient at it.

Most adults have the leg strength if they have moderate leg strength. It's the coordination and mobility that always hinders them. With kids, it's the coordination and strength but very rarely the mobility (though some kids are just stiff because they are born that way or inactivity).

When I first started learning the SLS, what would be called pistol version (I'm not sure they were even called that in the mid 90s), I picked them up pretty fast. I had always had good hip mobility from judo (though a lack of active flexibility as it never was trained). I don't remember squatting or lunging on purpose as a kid till HS. I basically played lots of sports. Come to think of it, I got my fair share of duckwalks as a 5-7yo but I don't remember doing them regularly in any sports. Basketball camps worked lots of sumo like stance movement. In baseball, you lunge on one leg. In skiing you squat sort of in a tuck when you want to go fast. That's about it, but we never really strength trained per say for any of them.

Anyways, come HS I was by no means fast or strong or in superb shape. SLS were trying upon starting them in karate/kung fu but it didn't take long before I could do them. We also did a lot of lunges and squat kicks as well so that probably helped.

Bare in mind, that being less than 5' in those days doesn't mean it's as problematic as someone who is 6'.

[Mahmoud Hashem]

My mobility is fine do you recommend something other than negatives to build up to SLS?

I can do SLS but I can't go down all the way to the bottom. I'm not strong enough (which is weird because I can squat a little over my bodyweight with 2 legs, you'd think 1 leg could hold half the load you know?).

I have very good hip mobility from Judo too, and I can do side splits and front splits because I used to do a lot of kicks.

My technique with kicks is gone but the flexibility is still there.

Also, if I don't have rings, what's a harder variation of pushups that I can do, regular pushups are no problem for me so I won't stay in the 3-5 rep range like that.

Maybe I can have a kid sit on my back or something...

When I first started learning the SLS, what would be called pistol version (I'm not sure they were even called that in the mid 90s), I picked them up pretty fast. I had always had good hip mobility from judo (though a lack of active flexibility as it never

Oh how long did you do Judo?

[Vincent Stoyas]

For push ups you can try to move your hands toward your waist inch by inch. Theyre called pseudo planche push ups. PPP are very elbow and shoulder intensive so progress very slowly.

[Blairbob]

You could do the pseudo planche pushups. You might be able to work dips on chairs. I have to tuck my knees to do them on chairs and they do brush the floor. All depends on your chairs or stools (they work better) and your body size.

Weighted pushups are another option, a bit weird to setup on your own unless you have a weight belt and plates and that also means you have to do the pushup above ground with the weight hanging down. Kind of a pain. Weight vests are an option as well, but expensive.

If you can do dips and are ready, you could embark on Headstand pushups, starting with them off a block or chair so that your hips are piked but your back is vertical.

Squatting a little over your BW isn't really that impressive, sorry. What would be more important is if you can squat butt to ankles. You don't need a HOOGE squat to do pistols though really.

The whole 2 leg vs 1 leg isn't a clear equation. Keep working on the negative SLS. I like working just the very bottom of the SLS as a warmup for knees, hips, and ankles but I will also have gymnasts just work on holding that position with an assist if need be. You can work assisted SLS by holding a pole in front of you or rings, whatever. You can also do the deck squat to pistol variation where you roll back and then do a SLS out of the bottom. Many of our girls who could not do SLS could do these. Work them all.

I did Judo when I was 5-7 about a year and a half. I remember lots of duck walks, army crawls, my gi and tying my belt and wrestling on the floor and that's about it. And rolling and my sensei and my dad. And having to bridge to get out of being pinned.

[Mahmoud Hashem]

Are headstand pushups the same thing as handstand pushups?

If not what's the difference?

[Vincent Stoyas]

HSPU require full ROM with shoulders to hands. Often the extra height is gained by doing them on parallel bars.

HeSPU are with your hands on the floor.