weight training + gymnastics

[Rice]

Hey guys!

I have following question(s). First, i´m 17 years old, weigh around 79-80kg at 185cm height.

At the moment i´m training a typicall plan with the aim to get stronger. I want to achieve to become as strong as for me possible. Building muscle is not so important for me. It´s not that i don´t care about, but strength is more important.

So i´ve been always really impressed by the gymnastics and really want to change my training routine now, combining Weight training/powerlifting with gymnastics on the floor and rings.

My training looks like that at the moment:

Routine 1:

warmup

-frogstands (all in all 1min 30 sec.)

-low l-sit on rings (all in all 1min 30 sec.)

5x5 Sumo DL

5x5/3x3 Benchpress

3x barbell rows

Routine 2:

warmup

-Ring supporthold (all in all 1min 30 sec.)

-tuck front lever (all in all 1min 30 sec.)

5x5 front squats

3x Military press

10x5 pull ups (clustered)

i also do 1 or 2 sets of grip strength training after every workout, like rice, pinch grips or wrist roller. I trai this plan 3x a week. One week looks like R1,R2,R1 and the next one R2,R1,R2 and so on....

How you can see i already tried to put in some gymnastics, but i´m not sure, if that plan is made very well, because i´m really new to that stuff od course

My original plan looked like that:

Routine 2:

warmup

5x5 front squats

3x Military press

10x5 pull ups (clustered)

+ 3 sets of calves

+ 3 sets of rotatortraining

Routine 1:

warmup

5x5 Sumo DL

5x5/3x3 Benchpress

3x barbell rows

+ 3 sets of facepulls

+ Abs

So i´m really a little bit confused how to deal with my situation, there are almost TOO many information out there, so i don´t know what to add, what to cancel etc.

I would be really glad if you may help me :wink:

Greetz,

Rice

[Philip Chubb]

Hey there! I'll give you a few tips at the beginning that may help you simplify your workouts. First, gymnastics is really good for upper body development. Unless you really like weights, your recovery would best be spent on adapting to gymnastic bodyweight progressions. One of the moderators, Ido, made a very good write up in the basic strength section of the forum. I would advise first that you check that out for your upper body work and it may allow you to simplify things a bit. For the lower body, weights are more effective. You can mix them, but it is something you want to be cautious about.

From personal experience, I used to mixed weights and gymnastics as well. It worked, but wasn't as effective as it could have been. The day I stopped lifting weights along with it, my gymnastic progression skyrocketed. Now, instead of feeling behind on my progress, I am usually feeling ahead and like I need to take a week to underload.

I hope I helped a bit.

[Rice]

Thanks for your ncie post and advise, i´ll read it for sure. Latest tomorrow

Does anyone maybe have the same experience or an example how such a workout routine mixed out of weight training and gymnastics could look like?

[Philip Chubb]

No problem!

Well we'll need a bit more info than that. Such as do you want gymnastic for upper and weights for lower or a mix of them all ect ect. The more info the easier it is to answer such a question.

[Rice]

oh sorry.

Alright, so i didn´t want to kick all the upper body weight training out and put the gymnastics in instead. How you already said, i want to train my lower body with weights. In my oppinion more effective!

But in the upper body party, i wanted to try to mix it up. Weights + gymnastics. Because i also love th upper body weight exercises like benchpress, military press etc. i didn´t really want to cancel them. Is it somehow possible to keep them in there and do gymnastics extra? Like assistance exercises or so? Or maybe creatse something like a cycle?

I´m glad for everyonés answer, nice forum here :wink:

[Nicholas Sortino]

oh sorry.

Alright, so i didn´t want to kick all the upper body weight training out and put the gymnastics in instead. How you already said, i want to train my lower body with weights. In my oppinion more effective!

But in the upper body party, i wanted to try to mix it up. Weights + gymnastics. Because i also love th upper body weight exercises like benchpress, military press etc. i didn´t really want to cancel them. Is it somehow possible to keep them in there and do gymnastics extra? Like assistance exercises or so? Or maybe creatse something like a cycle?

I´m glad for everyonés answer, nice forum here :wink:

I've been mixing the GB WODs with Olympic lifting and to be honest, it is very draining. I am really not sure it is getting me the best results, but I enjoy O-lifts too much to give them up completely. I understand where you are coming from, but know that it is likely not going to lead to faster or better results.

If I was you I would do the bench press and press maybe once every 10 days and do the GB WODs for the most part. Your shoulders in particular will get a lot of work from the hand stand WODs and I am certain they have improved my press more than when I was doing CF.

I would do something like follow the WODs and day 5 Bench, day 10 Press, Day 15 Bench, Day 20 Press etc... It won't really be enough to make you get better from those workouts alone, but it should be enough to maintain anything you have, and you will certainly continue to make strength gains from the WODs. If you start to feel drained from doing that, take a day off or two.

I don't see any reason you couldn't replace the Leg WODs with your own doing squats and deads, and even do more than that if you feel the need. I wouldn't neglect those SLS though. They are a fun party trick

[Rice]

thanks!

yeah i kinda thought about somethinglike that. Maybe i have to say, that my aim is NOT, to be an extremely good gymnast, i just thought, it could be a great additional training next to my strength part. For having this "functional strength", so like BWE´s and stuf, i thought gymnastic - and ringtraining would be best.

So shall i just keep my strength planlike this and add something somewhere? Lil bit confused, sorry....

[Nicholas Sortino]

well, what is your main goal? If you are a powerlifter and looking at Gymnastics, I will assume strength is primary goal.

It really depends what you want to get better at more. If you keep a powerlifting program, it is very reasonable to throw in some gymnastics training, especially during your warmup. For example, you could make 2-3 different warm ups including the various FSPs as well as some ring elements, handstands and FBE's that are similar to what lifting for that day. Pull ups and dips (especially on rings) are a good compliment to powerlifting and can be done of your lighter weight, higher rep days (provided you are strong enough to have over a 10rm in those already).

If you want to focus primarily on gymnastics based strength, I would suggest following the WODs, scaled to your level, and replace the leg workouts with your own PL ones if that is what you want. In addition, like I said last post, every 10 days do your upper body lifts. If they happen to fall on the same day as a GB WOD, I would suggest doing them a good 6 hrs apart if you can fit that into your schedule. If not, do the GB WOD first, since that would be your main focus, and finish up with lifts.

[Rice]

Thanks!

Yes how you already said, my main goal is to get strong in the mainlifts, and add some gymnastics and ringexercises.

It´s not my aim to become xtremely strong in gymnastics, but i want to also get better in my "functional" strength part, that´s why i want to mix it up a bit.

Do you/others maybe have a suggestion on how my posted Strengthplan could looklike (mixed with the gymnastics/rings) ?

[Nicholas Sortino]

straight from starting strength:

Monday

Squat 3x5

Bench press/press 3x5 (alternating)

Chin-ups: 3 sets to failure or add weight if completing more than 15 reps

Wednesday

Squat 3x5

Press/bench press 3x5 (alternating)

Deadlift 1x5/Powerclean 5x3 (alternating)

Friday

Squat 3x5

Bench press/press 3x5 (alternating)

Pull-ups: 3 sets to failure or add weight if completing more than 15 reps

What does "(alternating)" mean?

for example:

Deadlift 1x5/Powerclean 5x3 (alternating)

It simply means that one workout Deadlifts are done (instead of powercleans), then the following workout Powercleans are done (instead of deadlifts), then deadlifts, then powercleans, etc.

This is just one of the beginner programs. There are others if you want to do more Cleans or not at all (not suggested).

For your warm ups do something to get loose. Then do your 60sec total for all of the FSPs. Of course do warm up sets for each PL exercise before you go into the main sets as well.

If you are really interested in power lifting I highly suggest you become very familiar with Rippetoe's Starting Strength. There is a giant wealth of information in that wiki, and even more at http://startingstrength.com/. If power lifting is your focus, that is the place to go.

[Joshua Naterman]

Do you care about running speed, agility, and jumping at all?

If your goals are strength in the 3 competitive powerlifting lifts, you are going to want to focus your main training days on those lifts, and use the GB exercises for assistance work, which comprises keeping your joints healthy, maintaining and improving ROM, and keeping the balance of strength healthy in the shoulders between the front and the back. Very important stuff, that is. You'll want to make some fairly specific selections for this assistance work, and you will benefit from cycling between using the work in BtGB for your assistance work and using weights for assistance, primarily with your back.

I highly recommend that, along with starting strength, you read Jim Wendler's 531 Manual. There is no such thing as a perfect program unless it is created for you individually, but between these two books you will have excellent beginner and intermediate programs and you will also have a very good look into the types of assistance work you need. Jim does not cover some of the basic concepts that are important because I think he assumes you're going to figure it out, but his exercise selections are pretty good for the most part.

I can get into more depth on this, but not until you read those two books. In the meantime, some general info will be good. Do you want to compete in PL meets? Are you not sure? Are you wanting to play any sports? These are very important questions to know the answers to, because if you care about sport ability you are not going to want to do a straight PL program and you will not want to place as much emphasis on maximal strength. If you are not sure, I will recommend that you keep a more balanced training program that trains a wider variety of abilities.

[Rice]

First of all, thanks for all your posts *thumbsup*

As slizzardman perfectly said, i want to to the gymnastic/ringstuff as assistance, NOT primary. My focus is on getting as strong as for me possible. I´m not interested in competitions, i want to do it for myself.

@slizzard: I don´t have any aims in running. Basicly, i got aims in 2 sections: First of course getting really strong in the 3 "Kings" (for me) and second Karate. But if i had to choose, PL is more important. I´d say like 60% PL - 40% Karate.

Gymnastics i just want to do, as already said, as assistance, and like slizzarman noted, staying healthy, getting this functional strength.

You already came to the Assistance issue. What would you suggest, which would be the best exercises or plan? I know, i´m kinda dumb in that sections, but all these information cause more confsuion for me than a good solution...

[Nicholas Sortino]

No one here on the internet can give you the perfect plan for what you should be lifting. But I did give a pretty decent plan to follow if powerlifting is what you want. We can't do all the research for you, but if you browse the wiki I gave you, you will see everything you need to know about how to do that program including where to start and how much weight to add and what to do when you stall, etc.

The actual book not only covers that, but goes very in depth on how to do all of the lifts properly, why those lifts, and why the program is the way it is. I personally think it (along with the other books by Rippetoe and Kilgore) is the best powerlifting resource out there. If that is really what you want to do, there is no excuse for not reading it.

Slizz and I have pointed you in the right direction. Getting stronger is a journey only you can make though, and you need to understand this stuff well enough to know what you are doing. Asking someone to just give you a program to follow without understanding the hows and whys is a surefire way to fail, whether it be from injury, lack of gains or some other reason.

[Rice]

hm alright. I never said , that someone can create a perfect programm or whatever, i already read alot. But all the information do more confuse me how i said. Everyone says something different and so on, this guy says i´s wrong, the next guy says it´s perfect. Of course there are different opinions, but for my part, there are just TOO many infos out there.

And yes, my aim is to become succesfull in the lifts. I think my basic plan, posted at the beginning is a good plan thought, involving all the important exercises. But just the stuff my gymnastics as assistance, i don´t know ho to get it, sorry.... :roll:

[Nicholas Sortino]

Do you have BtGB? If not, get it. It explains all of the FSPs and their progressions which you should be using in your warm ups.

I would also suggest doing XR support holds, hollows and arches, reverse plank hold, (press to if you can) hand stands and planche leans.

depending on how many times a week you work out will determine if you should do all of these every warm up, or half and half.

I wouldn't plan on more than 4 workouts a week and realistically 3 days is probably a better idea with lots of heavy powerlifting, especially when starting out.

[Rice]

Thanks!

First: what is BtGB and FSP´s?

Ring support holds i already did last time, in my warmup routine before strength training. I did following exercises always in front of my strength routine:

Before TE1 i did Frog stands (all together 90sec.) and low l-sits on rings (all together 90sec.)

Before TE2 i did Ring support holds (all together 90 sec.) and tuck front lever (all together 90sec.)

[Guest]

BtGB = Building the Gymnastic Body (Coach Sommer's book - check out the online store)

FSP = fundamental static position (i.e., planche, L-sit, etcetera)

Check out the list of WOD acronyms that can be found on top of every forum page, it's really helpful (the number of abbreviations is quite daunting at first)

[Rice]

ah thanks. So i alreday made not that bad choice in gymnastic exercises?

I handled it like that:

R1:

warmup

-frog stands(90sec. total)

-low l-sits (90sec. total)

5x5 sumo dl

3x3 bench

3x barbell row

+ some grip training

+ some abs

R2:

warmup

-ring support holds (90sec. total)

-front lever tucked (90sec. total)

5x5 front squats

3x military press

10x5 pull ups

+ some grip training

+ rotators

does that make sense or is it just a stupid schedule?

[Nicholas Sortino]

Out of curiosity, why front squats and Sumo DLs instead of Back squats and Deadlifts?

What about Back Lever, Straddle L, Handstand, and manna work? Do you do your Press while standing (better core activation)?

[Rice]

Front squats because i can get ass to grass with better technique and i just come better along with this exercise. Same with sumo dl, i just like it more than conventional, better technique.

Where should i place all those other stuff? Isn´t that a little bit too much then? My workouts are already like 70-90min..

Military press is standing, yes!

[Nicholas Sortino]

I understand the Front Squats, I prefer them myself, but you can definitely do more weight with back squats. Gotta work on that hamstring flexibility so you don't curve your back.

I fund Sumo Deadlifts kinda awkward, but they may very well fit your body type better. If that is what you prefer, then go for it, as long as you are making progress and maintaining good form.

Those other exercises would be part of your warm up. I don't know what you currently do for a warm up, but it should be a fairly brisk pace and get you good and warm (sweaty). If it is too much to do all of them each workout (and it may very well be), do half with workout A and half with B.

Another option would be to work the FSPs at different times throughout the day. You could do a few of them a few hours before or after your workout and long as you warm up a little first. Honestly, Slizz might have a better idea than me on this one, I am not fond of programming too much. Part of the reason I like GB WODs so much :oops:

[Joshua Naterman]

That's not bad, but you'll want to do the dip progressions for your bench press assistance work and bulgarian rows, body rows (and eventually tuck FL rows), and HSPU variations for shoulder strength balance. Barbell rows are good to switch off with for a week or two so that you keep the muscles exposed to different stimuli, but you need Kroc rows in there as well. Some assistance work is heavy, which is intended to keep the antagonistic muscle groups for bench press balanced with the agonists and to strengthen weak points as they become apparent. The lighter assistance work is for retaining (or perhaps building) proper shoulder girdle (includes scapula, and to a large extent focuses on scapular movement) movement and neural patterns in the shoulder girdle especially, for injury prevention.

Strength training as a main goal will slow you down some, so as long as you don't care about that go for it! If you keep your flexibility training up you shouldn't lose any flexibility at all.

As for reading books, use them to learn about how strength is built physiologically. Until you learn how your body works, you will have trouble understanding exercise selection. Many times there are certain parts of programs that are smart even when the program as a whole is not optimal, but that will be hard to recognize if you don't know how the different training effects interact to create an overall effect. You will not remember everything, even I don't remember everything. That's why I keep my books around, and that's why it is important to have them on your shelf. You WILL keep going back to them if you are serious about your goals.

If you want to use gymnastic exercises for your assistance work then you need BtGB. There is so much that I would like to recommend, but without that book in your possession I can not.

[Rice]

thanks alot for your answers.

So ok, i´ll definitely buy this book. I hope i can get it here in germany, shipping is hopefully possible.

Okay, so if i understood right, i should do the following exercises:

- ring support holds

- HSPU variations

- dips

- bulgarian rows OR kroc rows OR body rows

- rotators (light)

- front lever progression

- l-sit progression

- planche progression

would i have everything in there?

And what do you mean with the barbell rows slizzard? Just do them rarely, and do one of the other rowing variations instead?

[Rice]

ps: as lucky as i am, i asked a friend of mine if he knew that book (he was doing gymnastics earlier) and he has that book . So slizzard, you can definitely go more in to detail if you want now

[Joshua Naterman]

Bulgarian rows are light work, FL rows will be heavy work. Kroc rows will be heavy. BB rows are less ideal so you should use them as a detraining method for the other rows and work them both heavy AND light.

Do you have Jim Wendler's 531? It is a good powerlifting program. I personally think that you should be working that program for your lifting. It is simple and effective, and does a good job of balancing the assistance work without wearing you out. I will not explain any of the protocols, you will need the book for that. I'll post some recommended swaps for the assistance work tomorrow probably.