Question about Jefferson Curls

[Aaron Altamura]

Here's the video starting at the proper mark for discussing Coach's approach.

I'm finding myself reacting defensively for Coach for a number of reasons:

1. Renowned professionals that come off condescending and lacking intellectual curiosity piss me off. I run into it too often.
2. His scientific references and experiences are anecdotal and don't seem to support his assessment. I don't see him making the distinction between causal and correlating relationships.
3. He further goes on to say he basically doesn't support stretching.

However, considering all his experience, flat out saying this exercise is not healthy is concerning.

I'm thinking about reducing the weight I'm using for J-Curls as a response, but the jury is till out for me.

 

[Luke Searra]

Considering the basic functionality of all athletes late in their careers or in their post-careers, I am absolutely certain you will find ex-gymnasts to be the most functional in all aspects of strength, flexibility, agility and coordination.

[Julian Aldag]

Saying that all old gymnasts are f-upped is a far reach. We don't know anything about their past training, previous injuries, times where performance was a greater priority than the thought of longevity/risk of injury.  I've had a coach that told me when he was in the Olympics, he messed up his knee big time and the doc wanted to pull him out but he said "Stick a needle in it, I am going to perform today!".  Does that mean that Gymnastics is inherently bad for knees? or perhaps we don't always make the best choices?

[Coach Sommer]

Hello Everyone,

Dr. McGill called and asked if I had 5 minutes or so to chat.  About 90 minutes later we concluded.  

Good conversation.  Bottomline is that we had far more in common than not and Dr. McGill ended up approving of my approach for developing the jefferson curl in healthy individuals.  In the future, Dr. McGill and I discussed having him on as a guest on my upcoming podcast.

It may be helpful to note that both of our approaches are colored by our past experiences; his as a clinician and mine as a national team coach.

Because he tends to deal primarily with chronically injured patients with permanent structural deficits, Dr. McGill must find ways to work around pre-existing conditions.  

Because I primarily deal with people who are deconditioned, but structurally sound, I focus on regaining lost function and range of motion in healthy individuals.

And before the masses of hypochondriacs amongst you begin clamoring, for the record the vast majority of people are NOT structurally damaged; just lazy and out of shape.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

 

[Joaquin Malagon]

Thanks Coach for adding some clarity to this issue, I'm looking forward to the upcoming podcast.

[Ronnicky Roy]

On 12/28/2016 at 0:44 AM, Aaron Altamura said:

So I took an FMS, as recommended by Tim Ferriss in Tools of Titans and the kinesiologist is adamantly against Jefferson Curls of any kind. I thus sent him to this forum thread and he refused to read and replied as following. I bolded and italicized the salient points.

"I can't read message boards because they are all opinion about what people feel etc. and not credible. 

I actually started reading it though and immediately had to close it. 

Here's the short and sweet. 

We know in the scientific literature that loaded spinal flexion will put you at a greater risk for injuring your discs. That's fact. 

Secondly if the goal is to stretch the hamstrings, why would a coach request that you flex your spine? Anatomy dictates that the insertion and attachment point of the hamstring is on the back of the leg just below the knee and at the top of the hip. Stretching hamstrings should not require any back movement what so ever. Just bend at the waist keep your torso straight. 

Now it just so happens that we learn to stretch our hamstrings by bending over and touching our toes. However that is a misnomer as you are stretching your hamstrings but also some of the other tissues on the back. But that is unloaded. Very little risk (although there is substantial evidence that crunches can cause disk herniation over time too). The old school coach who has a limited understanding of muscle anatomy should say," well hell, let's add some weight to pull the person down further". And it certainly works. But created greater intervertebral compression force on one side of the disk and when your younger you may be able to tolerate that. So coach doesn't start injuring athletes. But as you continue to do that you may create microscopic cracks in the annulus of the disk and the nucleus begins to migrate further and further to one side. As we get older in our 30s and later we begin to see the wear and tear. 

The risk of this exercise far outweighs the reward and I have so many other safer options to stretch hamstrings - RDL's PNF, FRC, foam rolling. Why would I expose a client to that potential danger? I'd be an asshole if I knew about the risks but did it anyway! 

Also remember that there are folks who for what ever reason may not injure themselves executing exercises poorly. They are the anomaly and it makes most sense knowing the risks to avoid potential injurious exercises and substituting with other scientifically proven methods of exercise."

I'm still for the weighted mobility exercises as I'm in decent shape and I've noticed fantastic improvement in my mobility and flexibility, however his risk v. reward argument sticks in my craw.

I know in this article, https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/jefferson-curls-weighted-mobility-posterior-chain/, you guys emphasize a lot of caution, but is there still substantial risk?

 

 

You were talking to a Kinesiologist that has not continued his learning outside of school. There's a wealth of knowledge on this subject, with reputable sources. Maybe he and yourself were not aware in the moment, but this board actually has professional certified expert opinions. Actual qualified opinions. Not just someones "feelings".

[Suzanna McGee]

1 hour ago, Coach Sommer said:

And before the masses of hypochondriacs amongst you begin clamoring, for the record the vast majority of people are NOT structurally damaged; just lazy and out of shape.

    BOOM!!!

[Alexander Egebak]

1 hour ago, Coach Sommer said:

Hello Everyone,

Dr. McGill called and asked if I had 5 minutes or so to chat.  About 90 minutes later we concluded.  

Good conversation.  Bottomline is that we had far more in common than not and Dr. McGill ended up approving of my approach for developing the jefferson curl in healthy individuals.  In the future, Dr. McGill and I discussed having him on as a guest on my upcoming podcast.

It may be helpful to note that both of our approaches are colored by our past experiences; his as a clinician and mine as a national team coach.

Because he tends to deal primarily with chronically injured patients with permanent structural deficits, Dr. McGill must find ways to work around pre-existing conditions.  

Because I primarily deal with people who are deconditioned, but structurally sound, I focus on regaining lost function and range of motion in healthy individuals.

And before the masses of hypochondriacs amongst you begin clamoring, for the record the vast majority of people are NOT structurally damaged; just lazy and out of shape.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

 

I would look forward to seeing him on your podcast!

It is nice to see people from different worlds go together and agreeing on something controversial to both fields.

In the end what we are afraid of in JC are pain, and pain can be avoided in JC by building them up slowly with a modest degree of weight. Should they cause structural damage in the end... Who cares? Newer studies show that the majority of people, especially as they age, acquire structural abnormalities throughout their life but only a minority experience pain directly in relation to that. Many people life pain-free with whatever their spine looks like.

Problems arise when people are TOLD that they SHOULD be cautious, afraid of, worry about... their spinal health. Nocebo-effect 101. Not all disc bulges result in nucleus floating out to crush a nerve. Very often the problems are socio-psychological and bad feelings manifest as muscle tensions, higher sensitivity to that and a high level of alertness in the body. It could be very true that the people who believe all myths about loaded outside-of-neutral positions are bad are actually at a higher risk of injury because their mind would be looking for danger in advance. Every noxious input would be interpreted as pain/discomfort and associated with spinal damage.

[Luke Searra]

Thank you for the clarification Coach, I'll look forward to the podcast.

[Aaron Altamura]

3 hours ago, Coach Sommer said:

Hello Everyone,

Dr. McGill called and asked if I had 5 minutes or so to chat.  About 90 minutes later we concluded.  

Good conversation.  Bottomline is that we had far more in common than not and Dr. McGill ended up approving of my approach for developing the jefferson curl in healthy individuals.  In the future, Dr. McGill and I discussed having him on as a guest on my upcoming podcast.

It may be helpful to note that both of our approaches are colored by our past experiences; his as a clinician and mine as a national team coach.

Because he tends to deal primarily with chronically injured patients with permanent structural deficits, Dr. McGill must find ways to work around pre-existing conditions.  

Because I primarily deal with people who are deconditioned, but structurally sound, I focus on regaining lost function and range of motion in healthy individuals.

And before the masses of hypochondriacs amongst you begin clamoring, for the record the vast majority of people are NOT structurally damaged; just lazy and out of shape.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

 

Thank you coach!

Unfortunately this kinesiologist did not want to entertain an open discussion or dive into greater detail, which is the exact opposite behavior of a professional. Professionals, by definition, continue to learn about their craft throughout their career and retain an intellectual curiosity. 

As a fellow professional, but in a different field, I feel a duty to name this kinesiologist, but don't want to continue to stir the nest.

Just note it's best practice to ask seemingly dumb questions and don't take anyone's word for gospel, despite whatever letters they have next to their name.

 

[Chris Banul]

What's the podcast called?  I have totally missed it's existence!!!

[Aaron Altamura]

On 12/30/2016 at 5:11 PM, Chris Banul said:

What's the podcast called?  I have totally missed it's existence!!!

I think it's still in development.

[Joaquin Malagon]

I remember reading somewhere that Coach's athletes were able to perform 2x BW Jefferson Curls (unless I read that wrong), why was it decided that 1x BW Jefferson Curls would be goal for Foundation, does the risk increase going beyond 1x BW, or is this the connective tissue threshold for adults?

[Ronnicky Roy]

3 minutes ago, Joaquin Malagon said:

I remember reading somewhere that Coach's athletes were able to perform 2x BW Jefferson Curls (unless I read that wrong), why was it decided that 1x BW Jefferson Curls would be goal for Foundation, does the risk increase going beyond 1x BW, or is this the connective tissue threshold for adults?

I don't remember reading that anywhere. He's stated on many occasions to reach bodyweight Jefferson Curls as your goal, with a bare minimum of half your bodyweight. I do remember there being talks about going past bodyweight, to see the further benefits. But I don't recall double bodyweight as a goal. 

[Alexander Egebak]

48 minutes ago, Joaquin Malagon said:

I remember reading somewhere that Coach's athletes were able to perform 2x BW Jefferson Curls (unless I read that wrong), why was it decided that 1x BW Jefferson Curls would be goal for Foundation, does the risk increase going beyond 1x BW, or is this the connective tissue threshold for adults?

I have not heard of that either. I believe there is a point where you do more harm than good; that you can curl too much weight and thereby apply too much force to the spine to let it heal up and increase CT density.

[Joaquin Malagon]

Like I said, I might have misread that somewhere, so I apologize if I'm raising any confusion. I was mainly interested in the 1x BW threshold. I had also thought something similar, Alexander, although I wasn't sure it the right answer.  

[Alessandro Mainente]

On 12/29/2016 at 9:43 PM, Coach Sommer said:

Hello Everyone,

Dr. McGill called and asked if I had 5 minutes or so to chat.  About 90 minutes later we concluded.  

Good conversation.  Bottomline is that we had far more in common than not and Dr. McGill ended up approving of my approach for developing the jefferson curl in healthy individuals.  In the future, Dr. McGill and I discussed having him on as a guest on my upcoming podcast.

It may be helpful to note that both of our approaches are colored by our past experiences; his as a clinician and mine as a national team coach.

Because he tends to deal primarily with chronically injured patients with permanent structural deficits, Dr. McGill must find ways to work around pre-existing conditions.  

Because I primarily deal with people who are deconditioned, but structurally sound, I focus on regaining lost function and range of motion in healthy individuals.

And before the masses of hypochondriacs amongst you begin clamoring, for the record the vast majority of people are NOT structurally damaged; just lazy and out of shape.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

 

please guys, read before answer again. read and read again.

[Joaquin Malagon]

Alessandro, I am aware that the Jefferson Curl is great in the absence of spinal pathologies. The question was simply regarding the benchmark of 1x BW as opposed to a higher load, perhaps you could shed some light on this.

[Coach Sommer]

Hello Joaquin,

IMO Bodyweight is sufficient for maximizing the benefits of the jefferson curl.  It is important to remember that this is mobility work, not maximal strength training.  

In instances where students began working with double bodyweight and beyond (Luke may chime in here) their jefferson curl technique was unacceptably altered to the point where is began resembling a deadlift more than a jefferson curl which defeats the whole purpose of the movement.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Joaquin Malagon]

Hey Coach, thank you for chiming in and shedding some light on this topic. I realize this is a mobility element and not a movement where maximal load would be used but still found it interesting that up to 1x BW was being utilized, and if I'm understanding this correctly, in your experience (and those of others) you found 1x BW to be the sweet spot between being able to fully flex under load and having to compromising form, or am I off here?

[Jonas Winback]

On 15/11/2015 at 9:05 AM, Jon Douglas said:

Nice. I generally train a 100kg 1-2* a week but I've gone up to 120 if I'm feeling it. The looks you get when the plates go on the bar is one thing, cursory interest, then once you get up on the bench.... minds blowing nearly audibly

What sort of warmup do you do before using these sort of weights? How slow/quick of a progression did you go through to reach it? I'm using 30ish kg right now, and I'm thinking maybe I'll add like 6kg every 2 months or so.

[Jon Douglas]

16 hours ago, Jonas Winback said:

What sort of warmup do you do before using these sort of weights? How slow/quick of a progression did you go through to reach it? I'm using 30ish kg right now, and I'm thinking maybe I'll add like 6kg every 2 months or so.

I don't need a warmup other than my general stretch/limber for 80-100kg; I prefer a light set (say 40kg) for higher than that, it starts to feel like strength over 100 just stepping up onto the box (bw 81kg atm)

Right now I'm looking at going back down to start over climbing from 20kg, @ 4-5x a week. There are advantages and disadvantages to frequency over weight, and vice-versa; do *not* try both, but I think that goes without saying if 100kg feels like a sprint, 20kg feels like a light stroll at this point; I have absolutely no qualms letting that weight roll between my vertebrae, and it feels splendid.

[Nils Westfelt]

On 12/29/2016 at 11:31 PM, Alexander Egebak said:

I would look forward to seeing him on your podcast!

It is nice to see people from different worlds go together and agreeing on something controversial to both fields.

In the end what we are afraid of in JC are pain, and pain can be avoided in JC by building them up slowly with a modest degree of weight. Should they cause structural damage in the end... Who cares? Newer studies show that the majority of people, especially as they age, acquire structural abnormalities throughout their life but only a minority experience pain directly in relation to that. Many people life pain-free with whatever their spine looks like.

Problems arise when people are TOLD that they SHOULD be cautious, afraid of, worry about... their spinal health. Nocebo-effect 101. Not all disc bulges result in nucleus floating out to crush a nerve. Very often the problems are socio-psychological and bad feelings manifest as muscle tensions, higher sensitivity to that and a high level of alertness in the body. It could be very true that the people who believe all myths about loaded outside-of-neutral positions are bad are actually at a higher risk of injury because their mind would be looking for danger in advance. Every noxious input would be interpreted as pain/discomfort and associated with spinal damage.

Have you read any Dr Sarno perhaps?  

[Theodore Williams]

 I understand that there should be no pain felt during this movement. But is an "intense sensation" the best i can describe it, behind the knee okay ? Should I stay at the current weight until the sensation goes away?  The feeling I get everywhere else  is pure heaven!

 

[Alessandro Mainente]

The sensation must be acceptable and you should still be able to breathe normally.