Question about Jefferson Curls

[Francesco Pudda]

Hi all.

 

I know that Jefferson Curls are an higly esteemed exercise by many gymnastic trainers and bodyweight training enthusiasts on the web.

I myself have experienced their benefits by letting me reach my max ROM in lesser sets (I typically need 4-5 set to reach my current max ROM for the pike at the end of the training, while only 2-3 if I do Jefferson Curls before static stretching).

 

Anyway I have often asked to personal trainers what did they think about this exercise. I would like to clarify that they all have a lot of experience (who more who less) in their field but not in the bodyweight/gymnastic training.

 

To make it short, what I was always told is that jefferson curls is surely a great exercise for competitive athlets and for whom that few centimeters of pike further may be the difference in a competition. But for amatorials athets the risk of bulges isn't compensated by the flexibility you would get.

 

What do you say about it? Is the risk of bulges really so high, even with correct form?

Edited September 1, 2015 by Francesco Pudda

[Toni Laukkavaara]

With the correct weight and technique it is safe to do

[Richard Stone]

Hi, I really do not think coach would include an exercise if there was a chance of injury if performed correctly. Reading the forums for years has not revealed an issue with Jefferson Curls even amongst us Zombies. Take it slow and light, do some and then look again at the video to check you are doing it correctly. It has helped me and lots of others.

All best Richard

[Coach Sommer]

The only issues I have observed are from people who insist on trying to prove they are Conan by working too heavy and treating mobility work like it is the Bataan Death March.

On the other hand, those people who are able to set their ego aside and start light with a moderate ROM have reaped enormous benefits from Jefferson Curls.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Francesco Pudda]

Hi thanks for your answers

 

I would like to know how you, coach, would implement them in the routine. What is generally the tempo of the JC? Slow descent, stop at the bottom, and slow ascent?

[Stephen Majerle]

Pike flexibility isn't the only benefit of Jefferson Curls. Strengthening the back while flexed is another benefit, and to me not training JC (sensibly) is MORE risky since your back isn't as well trained to handle load while flexed.

I began JC with a 5 lb dumbbell at the top of a stair case, and now train them with 135 lbs on a weight bench, on my slow march to full body weight.

[Coach Sommer]

Hi thanks for your answers

 

I would like to know how you, coach, would implement them in the routine. What is generally the tempo of the JC? Slow descent, stop at the bottom, and slow ascent?

This is addressed in Foundation One.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Andrew Long]

Id just like to point out over the years Ive built up to 110kg jefferson curl (i weigh about88kg)  I dont train at that weight but i thought it would be fun to mess with people in the gym.  man the stares and comments i get are priceless.... I dont feel any pain discomfort or strain when doing these unless i push out the reps and my form starts to deteriorate but the dangers are the same as any other exercise performed incorrectly.  my lecturer told me once "there is no wrong exercise, just wrong ways of doing them"  

 

on a side note, jefferson curls have helped significantly with helping keep my lower back safe during heavy deadlifts.(1-3rm)

[Tobias Åkeblom]

I had a suspected disc bulge about a year ago. I did JC with moderate load for a good amount of time and have then progressed and now I am doing them with 30kg without a problem. My back feels great after a couple of sets.

[Coach Sommer]

I had a suspected disc bulge about a year ago. I did JC with moderate load for a good amount of time and have then progressed and now I am doing them with 30kg without a problem. My back feels great after a couple of sets.

Impressive.

Congratulations on your improvement. A testament to the power of calm, steady, progressive work.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Tobias Åkeblom]

Impressive.

 

Congratulations on your improvement.  A testiment to the power of calm, steady, progressive work.  

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Big thanks to you Coach! Did olympic weightlifting for a number of years before starting with Foundations and suffered from tweaked back a couple of times a year. But since I started with GST. Not a case of lumbago at all. Feels great.

[Wesley Tan]

Yes nice work Tobias!

 

Recovering from a disc bulge is always possible as long as it is given time and the body prepared progressively.

 

Great stuff.

[Mats Trane]

Impressive.

Congratulations on your improvement. A testament to the power of calm, steady, progressive work.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

"The power of calm" what a great quote and one that should be practiced continuously.

[Tybalt]

There are a lot of exercises in the foundation series. Which would be the most beneficial to strengthening the spine besides the jefferson curls? Which 2-3 exercises should we keep in our training arsenal after achieving mastery for long term spinal health?

[Benjamin Nutt]

I had a suspected disc bulge about a year ago. I did JC with moderate load for a good amount of time and have then progressed and now I am doing them with 30kg without a problem. My back feels great after a couple of sets.

Likewise for me. I threw out my back nearly two years ago. Felt like I would never have spinal strength or mobility again. I've also had stone-like hamstrings for as long as I can remember.

 

Started F1 this year, in March or May I believe. For Jefferson Curls, I began with 11kg for about 8 weeks, progressed to 20kg for 8-12 weeks, and am now performing them with 36kg (just a hair over half my bodyweight). 

 

My back no longer hurts, and my hamstrings are more mobile than ever (still work to be done though). 

 

Slow, steady progression with perfect form was the key. Started very light, got to the point where the weight was too light to provide stimulation before moving on. I'm going to work to mastery of a 1xBW JC before moving on in my mobility progressions because I have found this exercise to be so beneficial.

[Matthew Jefferys]

Id just like to point out over the years Ive built up to 110kg jefferson curl (i weigh about88kg)  I dont train at that weight but i thought it would be fun to mess with people in the gym.  man the stares and comments i get are priceless.... I dont feel any pain discomfort or strain when doing these unless i push out the reps and my form starts to deteriorate but the dangers are the same as any other exercise performed incorrectly.  my lecturer told me once "there is no wrong exercise, just wrong ways of doing them"  

 

on a side note, jefferson curls have helped significantly with helping keep my lower back safe during heavy deadlifts.(1-3rm)

Chinese Weightlifters never perform round-back floor pulls with more than half their snatch weight. I'm not saying it's unsafe; just food for thought. They don't seem to do much heavier than that. Personally, I've limited myself to 60kg.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Mercurial Flow

[Matthew Jefferys]

There are a lot of exercises in the foundation series. Which would be the most beneficial to strengthening the spine besides the jefferson curls? Which 2-3 exercises should we keep in our training arsenal after achieving mastery for long term spinal health?

I'd say that back extensions, leg hyperextensions, bridges, Jefferson curls and weighted standing pikes are a must. There are one or two others that I can't remember the name of, but the aforementioned are very good.

[Andrew Long]

Chinese Weightlifters never perform round-back floor pulls with more than half their snatch weight. I'm not saying it's unsafe; just food for thought. They don't seem to do much heavier than that. Personally, I've limited myself to 60kg.

 

 

Like I said, I dont train at that weight. normally sit around the 60-80kg mark depending on how I feel on the day.  also need to take into consideration not total weight but % of bw.

[Jon Douglas]

Nice. I generally train a 100kg 1-2* a week but I've gone up to 120 if I'm feeling it. The looks you get when the plates go on the bar is one thing, cursory interest, then once you get up on the bench.... minds blowing nearly audibly

[Aaron Altamura]

So I took an FMS, as recommended by Tim Ferriss in Tools of Titans and the kinesiologist is adamantly against Jefferson Curls of any kind. I thus sent him to this forum thread and he refused to read and replied as following. I bolded and italicized the salient points.

"I can't read message boards because they are all opinion about what people feel etc. and not credible. 

I actually started reading it though and immediately had to close it. 

Here's the short and sweet. 

We know in the scientific literature that loaded spinal flexion will put you at a greater risk for injuring your discs. That's fact. 

Secondly if the goal is to stretch the hamstrings, why would a coach request that you flex your spine? Anatomy dictates that the insertion and attachment point of the hamstring is on the back of the leg just below the knee and at the top of the hip. Stretching hamstrings should not require any back movement what so ever. Just bend at the waist keep your torso straight. 

Now it just so happens that we learn to stretch our hamstrings by bending over and touching our toes. However that is a misnomer as you are stretching your hamstrings but also some of the other tissues on the back. But that is unloaded. Very little risk (although there is substantial evidence that crunches can cause disk herniation over time too). The old school coach who has a limited understanding of muscle anatomy should say," well hell, let's add some weight to pull the person down further". And it certainly works. But created greater intervertebral compression force on one side of the disk and when your younger you may be able to tolerate that. So coach doesn't start injuring athletes. But as you continue to do that you may create microscopic cracks in the annulus of the disk and the nucleus begins to migrate further and further to one side. As we get older in our 30s and later we begin to see the wear and tear. 

The risk of this exercise far outweighs the reward and I have so many other safer options to stretch hamstrings - RDL's PNF, FRC, foam rolling. Why would I expose a client to that potential danger? I'd be an asshole if I knew about the risks but did it anyway! 

Also remember that there are folks who for what ever reason may not injure themselves executing exercises poorly. They are the anomaly and it makes most sense knowing the risks to avoid potential injurious exercises and substituting with other scientifically proven methods of exercise."

I'm still for the weighted mobility exercises as I'm in decent shape and I've noticed fantastic improvement in my mobility and flexibility, however his risk v. reward argument sticks in my craw.

I know in this article, https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/jefferson-curls-weighted-mobility-posterior-chain/, you guys emphasize a lot of caution, but is there still substantial risk?

 

 

[Coach Sommer]

Hello Aaron,

Then your therapist is misinformed.

Even Dr. Stuart McGill himself, whom I have had long training conversations with, is in favor of my approach to Jefferson Curls.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Chris Garay]

7 hours ago, Coach Sommer said:

Even Dr. Stuart McGill himself, whom I have had long training conversations with, is in favor of my approach to Jefferson Curls.

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall of that conversation!

[Joaquin Malagon]

Coach could you elaborate further on this statement, in a podcast or two, Stuart McGill states that the Jefferson Curl is great for slender individuals and for promoting mobility in the spine in an athlete. He states that loaded flexion is terrible for long term health as the fascia lengthens and the spine becomes less able to lift heavy loads. I know you have stated as long as the individual utilizes intelligent programing (deloading, SSC, etc.) and progressing slowly there should be no problem and in the presence of pathologies to use caution. I'm also aware of the people who have reaped from the benefits on the forum here, which contradicts the experience Stuart had where he saw a decrease in back pain from individuals whom he advised to stop excessive flexion of the spine, a similar case with his work in the military. So the question remains, is loaded flexion (1xBW?) beneficial for long-term use, as in over a long amount of time or does Stuart simply lack context and proper programming? Or perhaps there is more to this I am not aware of?

[Alexander Egebak]

18 hours ago, Coach Sommer said:

Hello Aaron,

Then your therapist is misinformed.

Even Dr. Stuart McGill himself, whom I have had long training conversations with, is in favor of my approach to Jefferson Curls.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

In a recent podcast (maybe 6 months ago) Stuart McGill went in hard Jefferson Curls, weighted spinal flexion and you personally (the interviwer, Dean Somerset I believe, called you Chris Sommers of GMB, but he meant you). He went on explaining how gymnasts in general are worn down in their late years and believed that correlated with all the training being done outside of neutral.

Now, I think I agree with you that spinal load is not a bad thing as long as you increase tolerance over a longer period of time.

Would you mind adding a comment on that?

Youtube video is here - relevance starts around 51 minute mark:

 

[Jonas Winback]

On ‎2016‎-‎12‎-‎28 at 6:44 AM, Aaron Altamura said:

Here's the short and sweet. 

We know in the scientific literature that loaded spinal flexion will put you at a greater risk for injuring your discs. That's fact. 

Secondly if the goal is to stretch the hamstrings, why would a coach request that you flex your spine? Anatomy dictates that the insertion and attachment point of the hamstring is on the back of the leg just below the knee and at the top of the hip. Stretching hamstrings should not require any back movement what so ever. Just bend at the waist keep your torso straight. 

Now it just so happens that we learn to stretch our hamstrings by bending over and touching our toes. However that is a misnomer as you are stretching your hamstrings but also some of the other tissues on the back. But that is unloaded. Very little risk (although there is substantial evidence that crunches can cause disk herniation over time too). The old school coach who has a limited understanding of muscle anatomy should say," well hell, let's add some weight to pull the person down further". And it certainly works. But created greater intervertebral compression force on one side of the disk and when your younger you may be able to tolerate that. So coach doesn't start injuring athletes. But as you continue to do that you may create microscopic cracks in the annulus of the disk and the nucleus begins to migrate further and further to one side. As we get older in our 30s and later we begin to see the wear and tear. 

It's a bit hard to take a therapist seriously who "refuses to read" something that states something other than what the person believes, and also claims facts like that. Probabilities, possibilities and risk percentages certainly differ from individual to individual. To dismiss something entirely when it could benefit individuals seems a bit harsh and narrow. Like with any other tissue in the body it's all about finding the proper amount of load that the tissue can handle, seen from a greater scope of what that individual does in his or her life. Certainly a sedentary desk worker who sits in front of a computer 8 hours a day and then at home watching TV 2 hours a day might not have the same capacity or disk health as people who move around more. 

As a personal anecdote, I feel like my capacity for what my herniated lumbar disc and my other protruded lumbar disk can handle without causing any symptoms, has increased considerably over time when I've started adding both Jefferson curls and weighted pike stretches, but then I knew how to pace the progression correctly without overdoing it.

As for his comment on hamstrings flexibility, it seems he's disregarding the potential effects of the fascial or neural system on mobility. It's not a highly researched area, but there are some studies that have researched how stretching one muscle can affect the flexibility of another. It's a very interesting area for sure.

 

J Sports Sci. 2016 Nov 7:1-7. [Epub ahead of print]

Is remote stretching based on myofascial chains as effective as local exercise? A randomised-controlled trial.

Wilke J1, Vogt L1, Niederer D1, Banzer W1.

Author information

1a Department of Sports Medicine , Goethe University Frankfurt am Main , Frankfurt am Main , Germany.

Abstract

Lower limb stretching based on myofascial chains has been demonstrated to increase cervical range of motion (ROM) in the sagittal plane. It is, however, unknown whether such remote exercise is as effective as local stretching. To resolve this research deficit, 63 healthy participants (36 ± 13 years, ♂32) were randomly assigned to one of three groups: remote stretching of the lower limb (LLS), local stretching of the cervical spine (CSS) or inactive control (CON). Prior (M1), immediately post (M2) and 5 min following intervention (M3), maximal cervical ROM was assessed. Non-parametric data analysis (Kruskal-Wallis tests and adjusted post hoc Dunn tests) revealed significant differences between the disposed conditions. With one exception (cervical spine rotation after CSS at M2, P > .05), both LLS and CSS increased cervical ROM compared to the control group in all movement planes and at all measurements (P < .05). Between LLS and CSS, no statistical differences were found (P > .05). Lower limb stretching based on myofascial chains induces similar acute improvements in cervical ROM as local exercise. Therapists might consequently consider its use in programme design. However, as the attained effects do not seem to be direction-specific, further research is warranted in order to provide evidence-based recommendations.