Inputs for new cycle

[Fryk]

Hi

I have just finished a cycle, and done a max test, this week is the first of the new cycle - I had my second work out of the week today. So far I have used a template of Back Lever, Front Lever and Planche combined with dynamic exercises: Dips, pull ups, rows etc. 3-5 times x 3-5 reps x 4 times a week. I have also been doing handstand work also a bit freestanding, but it is not very organized at the moment.

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I was previously advised by Coach to work the back lever up to five holds of 15 seconds, before moving on. My max test worked out at around 28 seconds, which gives me working sets of 14 seconds. A tough hold but with out problems. Which is why I think it could be time to move on.

I want to hear if there is any inputs on how to proceed? Both with overall template and static exercises.

EDIT: Youtube video.

[Fryk]

I will try to be a little more specific. My main goal at the moment is to increase performance especially in the front lever and planche as I feel they are the natural stepping stones towards harder skills. Skills such as the cross. I also think that the handstand should have an increased emphasis, Coach has previously has stressed out that level of handstand often equals general level of athleticism.

I realize that I have to keep up practice on both Front lever and Planche in order to proceed. My lack of front lever improvement is my main concern at the moment.

Since my back lever has become somewhat stable I was thinking that another exercise might be more beneficial, also when considering the FL.

How to proceed?

- Stay with Back Lever, to stabilize it further - maybe add pull to inverted after each static hold?

- Manna progressions? - As I understand there is quite a carryover from FL to Manna, though I am not sure whether it also works the other way around?

- L-sit progression? - There is also a carryover from FL, again not sure about the other way around.

- Straddle L - Abdominal strength and active flex also makes it a good candidate for the FL as far as I can make out?

So the questions:

The template? I like the idea of steady state cycles, they seem to work and make sense from a physiological point of view. The question is more whether it is 4 or 5 times a week, and how many sets of what pr work-out. Of course I would like to do the WODs one day, but right now my level of strength or skill is to low.

Static - What to choose? I am leaning towards straddle L or Manna.

Dynamic exercises? I am currently cycling the FBE I can do. Should any particular dynamic exercises be included for progress with FL?

[Fryk]

I have recently moved and found a complete gymnastic facility which I apparently can use. This means long rings, pommel horse, parallel bars - the works.

I have found support and L-sit to be much harder in long rings so this will become a part of my routine. I will also include handstands as a mandatory exercise in every work-out. I think I will use the Killroy-template:

a1. Planche

a2. FBE

b1. Support / L-sit

b2. FBE

c1. Front lever

c2. FBE

d1. Handstand

d2. FBE

I read in the sticky that alternation between frequent / low volume training and less frequent / high volume should be used in order to avoid stagnation. Does any-one have an idea how much "high" volume is?

[Blairbob]

I think you need to find out what high volume is for you at this point. What might be high volume for you, may not be enough volume for someone with a high capacity.

I follow Coach Sommer's base embedded workout typically. 3 rounds of:

PL+FBE, BL+FBE, and FL+FBE. I put planche in the beginning since it's the one I'm weakest at. Well, either that or FL but some days PL is very weak. I alternate the FBE through horizontal, vertical, inverted and typically do HLL or body levers or V-up to support and maybe lower back stuff like german to basket. As well I do a bunch of HeSLL towards the end besides straddle-L and V-hang work.

Long rings make a big difference compared to rings hung at home. I typically work on the ones hung from the ceiling so they are probably 15-20 feet hung on rope. Big difference from the ones on HB or the ones setup to swing from.

[robotstrong]

Nice back lever! How long have you been training it?

[Fryk]

How do I detect what high volume is for me? I have typically been doing 3x pr static with FBE, like suggested by you Blairbob. Which hasn't really fatigued me or anything. I did try a higher amount of sets for a while, it was much harder during the workout , but in the days afterwards I didn't feel too tired, or at least not to my recollection.

When we talk about higher volume, does this also mean the number of reps? - I think it is more than half a year since I have done more than 6 reps of anything other than in warm up.

I have been doing the back lever for 3/4 of a year, I think. It was very quickly developed, went straight from scratch to straddle back lever, and very quickly to full. I think I will leave it be and possibly do some backpulling instead, unless there may be a reason to strive for a one-minute hold? Also I might add that such a long back lever hold is not very pleasant, it is in fact extremely hard.

[heinrich]

Just some thoughts because I'm planing my next cycle, too..

Should any particular dynamic exercises be included for progress with FL?

Someone I know got the FL by the use of slow negative Frontpulls combined with FL-Pulls.

He did 3 sets of: 1 negative Frontpull + 3 FL-Pulls. That could help to increase the needed straightbody-core-strength.

Handstands could be done on a seperate day like in the WODs (Strap-HS/Wall HS: 12 cycles of 30 sec work/45 sec rest, 10 to 20 min. HS Wall Runs + wall press HS).

I posted a question elsewhere if there is a form of integrated training regarding HS but it wasn't answered. I'm not sure about putting HS work in your routine like this:

c1. Front lever

c2. FBE

d1. Handstand

d2. FBE

a) Concerning what I read about HS-training it seems to matter how much time you spent inverted (so maybe seperate day).

b) Ido gave one user the advice to put 15 min of HS-work before each workout. One should work up to the cycles I mentioned above (30 work/45 rest fpr a total of 12 cycles = 15 min)

[Fryk]

Interesting post Heinrich. Though I am not a sure how you mean to implement the FL training, would that be on a four times a week basis opposed to doing the FL itself?

Handstand training should probably be kept aside from the generel static rotation, which also mean that I have to alter the template a bit.

[Joshua Naterman]

Fryk, don't forget that you can do your handstand training as a separate workout on the same day as other training. As long as you have 4 hours or so of rest in between, they won't interfere with each other if you don't overdo it!

I think what Heinrich is talking about is focusing your training more on the FL pulls and slow FL negatives, and using the static to gauge your progress, not as a workout in itself. I've found similar strategies with planches and back levers have been useful to me as well. For example, doing cast wall walks from handstand to planche, then back up as an exercise, and elevated pseudoplanche pushups on the floor, with my feet up on a bench as another. I've noticed that I can hold a two second straddle planche as a result of that. Not much, but It's a real pause, not just momentary. My elbow tendonitis is way too bad right now for me to work pressing up into the planches. I'm getting stronger though! I personally think that what Heinrich mentioned is a good idea, if you decide to try it please update us with your results!

[Mats Trane]

Why should handstand traning be kept aside from the fl,bl and planchwork and kept on a separate day (or four hours later the same day)?? I do planchwork, Bl, FL, straddle sit and handstandwork in the same workout. Is this a disadvantage??

If you leave the handstandwork out and you train planchwork, Bl, FL 4 days a week it would only give ou 2 days of handstandwork a week, giving yourself 1 day of rest.

[Joshua Naterman]

If you don't feel like you're overworking, keep it all together! I was just saying that you could split them apart because it lets you focus more on the handstands without burning that energy during the planche and lever work, but if you feel good doing them all together don't split them! I would definitely keep them on the same day though, I don't think it would be a good idea to work the handstands on a different day. Seems like it doesn't give shoulders enough recovery time, but who knows. I rarely do handstand specific stuff outside of Ido's locomotion training and one or two sets of wall handstands, so I just do that along with the rest of my upper body. When my shoulders feel better and I start working more handstand specific stuff, I'll be doing it as a separate workout at a different time of day. Doing everything in one workout just takes too long and takes too much energy, it's more efficient for me to break it. I'm a big guy though, and that makes a difference. Smaller people are moving less weight, and are going to need less recovery.

[heinrich]

1. Handstand

I'll be doing it as a separate workout at a different time of day. Doing everything in one workout just takes too long and takes too much energy, it's more efficient for me to break it. I'm a big guy though, and that makes a difference. Smaller people are moving less weight, and are going to need less recovery.

For someone doing gymnastics I'm pretty big, too (6' 2", 205 pounds). I try to keep my workouts fairly short and I don't have time to train 2 times a day. If it's just balancing: working towards/improving free standing HS I might do it each workout after general warm up and joint preparation.

Regarding Strap HS or HS Wall Runs and afterwards Wall Press HS, I find those exercises extremely productive. I guess we all know Coach Sommer's story about the young boy who couldn't walk on his hands so he did HS Wall Runs instead and finally got some nice Press HS by frequently doing HS Wall Runs. Another example is the topic "Fastest way to build HSPU". Elsewhere Coach posted that his coach made him do 30 min of Strap HS everyday to make his shoulder girdle bullet proof. Thats why I don't want to skip these exercises.

I thought about how to implement them in my schedule: Doing them on the same day along with FL, PL, BL + FBE would kill me although its "just" 10-20 minutes of Strap HS/ Wall Runs and Wall Press HS negatives. So I'll put those on a different day.

Sorry if I was unclear about balancing vs. HS strength training (Wall HS vs. Strap HS/Wall Runs).

Conclusion (my choice):

- warm up and joint preparation -> balancing -> max strength training (FSP + FBE)

- HS Wall Runs/Strap HS and Wall Press HS on a separate day

2. Frontlever

I am not a sure how you mean to implement the FL training, would that be on a four times a week basis opposed to doing the FL itself?

Not sure about that either since he didn't go into detail about frequency. I didn't try it yet but I'll do this combination 3 times a week. My schedule: 3 days FSP+FBE, 1 day HS strength training. Maybe I'll reduce the other pulling exercises (curls, horizontal, vertical) if I use the FL-Pulls and Frontpull negatives.

focusing your training more on the FL pulls and slow FL negatives, and using the static to gauge your progress

He tried to achieve the FL through statics but somehow it didn't work FOR HIM. So he quitted FL static work and did the above mentioned.

Maybe if you do slow FL-Pulls and you are strong enough you could add a short static hold of just a few seconds at the bottom of the FL-Pull if you still want to do some statics?!

I just thought I'd tell you of his different approach because you are thinking about working your full BL towards a 1 minute hold :shock: and your FL is still with knees pointing towards the ceiling.

As I said I'm no coach but wouldn't they normally be closer together? Like full BL for 28 sec like yours and at least FL-straddle or something? Maybe you could also need a different approach to FL.

Greetings, heinrich

[Joshua Naterman]

1. Handstand

I'll be doing it as a separate workout at a different time of day. Doing everything in one workout just takes too long and takes too much energy, it's more efficient for me to break it. I'm a big guy though, and that makes a difference. Smaller people are moving less weight, and are going to need less recovery.

For someone doing gymnastics I'm pretty big, too (6' 2", 205 pounds). I try to keep my workouts fairly short and I don't have time to train 2 times a day. If it's just balancing: working towards/improving free standing HS I might do it each workout after general warm up and joint preparation.

Regarding Strap HS or HS Wall Runs and afterwards Wall Press HS, I find those exercises extremely productive. I guess we all know Coach Sommer's story about the young boy who couldn't walk on his hands so he did HS Wall Runs instead and finally got some nice Press HS by frequently doing HS Wall Runs. Another example is the topic "Fastest way to build HSPU". Elsewhere Coach posted that his coach made him do 30 min of Strap HS everyday to make his shoulder girdle bullet proof. Thats why I don't want to skip these exercises.

I thought about how to implement them in my schedule: Doing them on the same day along with FL, PL, BL + FBE would kill me although its "just" 10-20 minutes of Strap HS/ Wall Runs and Wall Press HS negatives. So I'll put those on a different day.

Sorry if I was unclear about balancing vs. HS strength training (Wall HS vs. Strap HS/Wall Runs).

Conclusion (my choice):

- warm up and joint preparation -> balancing -> max strength training (FSP + FBE)

- HS Wall Runs/Strap HS and Wall Press HS on a separate day

2. Frontlever

I am not a sure how you mean to implement the FL training, would that be on a four times a week basis opposed to doing the FL itself?

Not sure about that either since he didn't go into detail about frequency. I didn't try it yet but I'll do this combination 3 times a week. My schedule: 3 days FSP+FBE, 1 day HS strength training. Maybe I'll reduce the other pulling exercises (curls, horizontal, vertical) if I use the FL-Pulls and Frontpull negatives.

focusing your training more on the FL pulls and slow FL negatives, and using the static to gauge your progress

He tried to achieve the FL through statics but somehow it didn't work FOR HIM. So he quitted FL static work and did the above mentioned.

Maybe if you do slow FL-Pulls and you are strong enough you could add a short static hold of just a few seconds at the bottom of the FL-Pull if you still want to do some statics?!

I just thought I'd tell you of his different approach because you are thinking about working your full BL towards a 1 minute hold :shock: and your FL is still with knees pointing towards the ceiling.

As I said I'm no coach but wouldn't they normally be closer together? Like full BL for 28 sec like yours and at least FL-straddle or something? Maybe you could also need a different approach to FL.

Greetings, heinrich

Wow, you are big too lol I don't know if you've ran into this, but doing ring handstands isn't as productive for me as doing the wall handstands, at least for the moment due to my lack of shoulder flexibility. It might be better now, I don't know, but I remember I was doing handstands on the rings and they were super easy and then I went to the wall and it was way harder, but I'm pretty sure that was because on the wall I could get vertical, and on the rings I was bowed, sort of like an inclined shoulder press I guess. So the muscles working were my upper pecs, not so much my shoulders. I've gotten more flexible though, it might be time to start doing the ring handstands some too. I'm thinking using a weighted vest will help too, I know when I was developing my pullup abilites for BUD/S, I used weighted pullups and it worked extremely well for me. So, I am thinking that will help me with the handstands as well. I can finally do a dew HeSPU! LIke 3, on a good set. Are you doing more than that? What was your program like if you are?

[Fryk]

2. Frontlever

I am not a sure how you mean to implement the FL training, would that be on a four times a week basis opposed to doing the FL itself?

Not sure about that either since he didn't go into detail about frequency. I didn't try it yet but I'll do this combination 3 times a week. My schedule: 3 days FSP+FBE, 1 day HS strength training. Maybe I'll reduce the other pulling exercises (curls, horizontal, vertical) if I use the FL-Pulls and Frontpull negatives.

Just to be on the same page: A Frontpull negative is the same as a negative front lever? And a FL-pull refers to a Frontpull?

I met a gymnastics coach at my gym who said that my one-legged FL was good enough / straight enough, though my hold is not very long at the moment - he suggested that I simply worked the one-legged. So I reckon I will try to work the one-legged, and maybe add the suggested negatives / slow Frontpulls on a twice a weak basis, as this is the area I am most keen on improving at the moment.

As for my back lever versus front lever, I guess we are just different genetically speaking. I might just be predisposed more towards strength in that particular exercise? Though I am not sure I should work towards a one minute hold, as I am unsure if there is any benefits from such a hold :?: It is very sub-maximal to do a one minute hold, or what.

The HS is a completely different story from this, though it is very interesting as it is a very important part of the general athletic development. At the moment I can do 2 reps of HeSPU against a wall, as well as some random freestanding HS. My goal of course is to develop a strong freestanding HS, in order to integrate it with other elements such as the planche and also on the rings - as a part of a future ring series.

[Joshua Naterman]

Front pull negative is not the same as a negative front lever.

Negative front lever starts from inverted hang, and moves down in a controlled fashion to dead hang. Arms remain straight at all times.

Negative front pull starts from the top of a pullup. From that position, start to straighten your arms as you lean back into a straight arm front lever(use whatever progression you are capable of). As your arms straighten, your hips and legs rise and your head and shoulders lower, so that you are moving straight into the front lever.

Does that clear it up a little?

As far as your back lever, people as a general trend seem to be stronger in the front half of their body than the back. They aren't supposed to be, but most sports and general fitness focuses on the front half. So, it's not horribly surprising that your back lever is better than your front lever. My friend Andrew is the same way, while I am the opposite. I started off being hugely strong in my back, so the front lever is much, much easier for me than the back lever. It's also partially bodyweight. Lighter guys will have an easier time with the back lever than bigger guys. You could also have a genetic predisposition to strength in certain muscle groups, but my first guess would be that the genetics play a smaller role than the combination of your bodyweight and your prior training, if any. Typically, genetics are more of a blanket development thing, but you could have more advantageous tendon to bone attachments.

[Razz]

I think how it is in btgb is that front pull negative= inverted hang to hang with straight arms and front lever pull= pullup position lower to front lever ( and back again)

[Fryk]

There is probably a tendency in the general population to over train the front part. Though I am not sure if my training prior to gymnastics has been too focused on a particular part of my body. The effects of training before gymnastics will over time even out. I want to improve my FL, because I feel I have a overall level of strength that is more than adv. tuck.

Also thank you for clearing up the whole FL - Frontpull incident.

[braindx]

Just throw something together and we'll critique

[Joshua Naterman]

I think Razz is right on the front pulls and front lever pulls

[Fryk]

This is just of the top of my head.

HS: I will try to do them at another time than the general work out, as much as time allows. Maybe two times a week.

Planche + FBE: Dips, HeSPU / negatives, PPP

FL + FBE: Possibly substituted with negatives and Frontpull once or twice a week

Support / L-sit + FBE: Core work and Back pulling

Leg work - 2 or 3 times a week. Single Leg Squats is my primary leg exercise at the moment as I haven't been able to find any alternative exercises.

All of this done with 3 to 6 sets, and 3-5 reps. I will try to work out what high and low volume is for me. I will try to adopt a rotation between exercises to cut back on time consumption like the rotation from killroys scheme.

Suggestions?

[Joshua Naterman]

For me, working upper and lower 3 times a week each is working well. For example monday upper, tuesday lower, wednesday upper, thursday lower, friday upper, saturday lower, sunday rest. I usually do one set of a weight exercise for each major muscle group, like bench or incline bench(I switch each workout), bent over row barbell or dumbbell with same weight and reps as bench if possible(again, switch), dumbbell one arm military press(standing), and some pullups(weighted usually, but recently just BW, l-sit , wide grip, and wide grip l-sit variations, and some wide behind the neck). I haven't done weighted pullups recently, I'm going to start again when my elbow stops bothering me. That doesn't take long, maybe 15 minutes at the most. Then I do my gymnastics, with wall handstands, planche work(cut out until my elbow heals), lever work, and maybe some HSPU. I usually do heavy handstand work every other upper body workout, but I do basic handbalancing every time. I also do dips, but recently I have only been using dips as a trainer for the muscle ups, so I go down to parallel forearms or slightly below, and then back up to a deep dip, and every 5th rep or so I will raise up to straight arms. Real dip training would be good, I will start that again soon, probably every other workout for a while, focusing on gaining old strength back. People will perhaps remember my claim of 50 reps with 120 lbs hanging on my waist. I want to get back to those numbers, so I will be focusing on that a little more. I also have recently started doing 1 set of bicep curls on the straight bar for 6 reps.

For lower days, I warm up and then do Ido's locomotion routine, but usually without the lizard walks. Those I do on the upper days. I forgot to put that. ANd I can't bridge walk at all Then I do one set of bw deck squats, and one set of jumping bw squats to make sure I'm warm, 8 reps or so. I do one or two sets of single leg squats, 5 reps each set. Then I do 1 set of back squats, with 5 reps shoulder width, 5 reps close, and 5 reps wide, all one set. Then I do 1 warmup set of deadlifts and then immediately load on the rest and do one set of 6-8 reps, switching grips halfway. I work heavy, so I use a switch grip, which is one hand overhand grip, other hand underhand grip. Every other lower body day I do a 20 rep set with lighter weight and a standard grip, which is knuckles on top of the bar both hands(double overhand grip). I have started doing 1 set of stiff legged deadlifts as well every other workout, it helps with the GHRs. IF I don't do stiff legged deadlift, I do GHR.

That's my current breakdown of the workouts. I do some of Ido's Floreio workouts, but not consistently enough to include them as a regular part of my workout. I'm getting better about that though, I love them.

I usually do ab work 2-3 times a week, and I leave it to my body to tell me when the best days are. More often than not I do them on my lower body days, because it's a shorter workout and I have more time. Plus, the upper stuff just doesn't tax my core very much, I'm very strong there. As far as abs go, I weight one side of a pullup tower down with plates and then do inverted situps for 1 set, usually 20 reps or so. I haven't done that weighted for a while, but I'm going to start again. Then I do one set of 10 body levers, and then I hang off a pullup bar, get into a flat back front lever with legs extended towards the ceiling in a straddle, and I twist from side to side 6-10 times on each side. It's like side HLL, sort of, but having the legs open is harder. As I get tired I will close them so it is more of a windshield wiper( or side HLL, depending on what you want to call it). I maintain hips at or slightly above shoulders the whole time. It's just a high level maintenance routine for the most part, although you could work harder if you need to.

That's my low volume work. 1 set of most things, 3 times a week. I use harder variations. I haven't done higher volume yet, but when I do I will be doing 2 sets with higher reps, with probably 80-90% of the weight I am using now. Probably 80%. I will also do the low volume, higher weight once a week to maintain strength. During the low volume times, one day a week will have one set of the higher reps so that I don't lose the endurance I gain.

I hope that helped a little. You'll notice that I don't have rings on there, that's because I haven't been using them recently. When I do use them, there's a wide support hold added in, and about 2/3 of the lever and 1/3 of the planche work is on the rings. Ok, I gotta go for today, good luck with whatever you do!

[doppelganger]

.

[heinrich]

Leg work - 2 or 3 times a week. Single Leg Squats is my primary leg exercise at the moment as I haven't been able to find any alternative exercises.

Suggestions?

I work SLS graduated and full rom negatives. Thats what I do for legs besides some Kettlebell stuff like snatches, swings etc. which hit the glutes quite well.

If you don't do Kettlebells or you don't have a partner you can use a doorway pullup bar for GHR's. Simply put it in your doorway a few inches above the ground. If there is too much pressure on your achilles tendon or on the knees, use a blanket or thick towel to pad these spots.

[Joshua Naterman]

Nice thinking on the GHR, heinrich!

[heinrich]

Do you have access to swedish bars? In the video at 0:34 the ladders in the background look like swedish bars.

If you want to do something else to help your FL you could try these (Swedish Bars Front Support Holds)

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2635&p=17199#p17199

I tried them yesterday and they are a killer :twisted:

I did the Frontpull negatives combined with Frontlever Pulls. It was good but I think I'll do it as you suggested

FL + FBE: Possibly substituted with negatives and Frontpull once or twice a week

(maybe changing it every other workout) since I don't want to quit the FL static holds completely.