Training to true failure vs Training with quality sets to failure

Which do you think is better?

Let me explain this...Let's say you work RC/PE1 week 9 which calls for 4x12 which you can achieve with good quality, form and tempo. Now week 10 calls for 4x15. You achieve in the first two sets 15 reps but in the 3rd set you hit 10 reps and on the 11th you fail. What do you think is better rest a few seconds and do 5 more reps or just hit 10 reps and then do the iM and then hit the 4th set untill <<quality sets failure>> for example 8 reps and do the iM or hit let's say 8 reps rest a few seconds do 4 more and then 3 more.

Which do you think is the better approach?

Logic says that training with quality sets will let you progress much faster. But would like to hear others opinions.

My gut tells me that you should either do another week or two at 4x12 to make it super comfortable before moving ahead,

Or you could trying resting 10sec when you hit failure and then continue the set (briefly resting as many times as need to finish the set)

As long as you keep an eye on the deload weeks, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.

That doesn't really answer you question but you need to find out what works better for you.  Maybe this time choose one of the options above, and then next time you hit a sticking point (regardless of what exercise) try something else and then compare the two to see which one you felt was better for you.

yes all this time I am training to true failure for many many microcycles...I think that this has stalled my progress a lot will change things up and hopefully see results. However I think if we follow the theory of steady state cycle the quality sets approach is more correct I believe.

Here's this one...

More, more, and, more.

That should help ya be more confuzed . Basically whatever approach works for you...but definitely read through those, lots of good stuff.

If I cannot maintain correct form, I try to do an easier version of the same exercise.  For example, if I fail at 10 pushups, I'll finish with 5 more kneeling pushups.  This way I still finish the set and get used to doing the correct reps.  If I have to use this frequently for a particular exercise, though, then I'd likely dial it back a few weeks and try again from there.

It doesn't work with every exercise, such as the static holds, but it works great when it does work.

It depends on your individual recovery abilities and ability to tolerate stress. Rest Pause sets (which is what you are doing by resting 10 seconds and then continuing the set), drop sets (switching to a lesser load/easier progression), continuing with partial reps, adding static holds at the end or "intensity techniques" (as they are known in bodybuilding) are going to increase the amount of stress you are putting on your recovery systems.

If you are the type who thrives on lots of volume and intensity then go for it, but if you feel that you are having a hard time recovering (which your post seems to suggest), then I would probably not do so.

The thing is that less stress is put on the CNS when you train to <<technical failure>> with quality reps in comparison to working to absolute failure...Training to absolute failure is good but needs to be done from time to time I believe...It becomes more clear if we see the benefits of steady state cycle or even sub maximal efforts (have seen in some posts that some people have progress really fast with submaximal sets). Less stress on the CNS faster recovery e.t.c. And <<technical failure>> although is not true submaximal effort it might be described as it is in comparison to true failure. Would love to hear what coach has to add on this. Although from the sticky of <<when to stop a set>> and the webinar I remember coach telling that you should train until your body and not your mind can not keep the correct tempo and form on the exercises. So stopping resting and then doing more reps might not be the best approach in order to progress but might be beneficial to be used sporadically...

Spphysio said:

Although from the sticky of <<when to stop a set>> and the webinar I remember coach telling that you should train until your body and not your mind can not keep the correct tempo and form on the exercises.

That's a point which caught my attention. When I first heard "You're not working hard enough", I started working to muscle failure. It wasn't long before I was feeling worn out and dreading my next workout. Pushing hard but stopping when your form and tempo breaks down seems like a better long-term strategy.

The Hansenator said:

That's a point which caught my attention. When I first heard "You're not working hard enough", I started working to muscle failure. It wasn't long before I was feeling worn out and dreading my next workout. Pushing hard but stopping when your form and tempo breaks down seems like a better long-term strategy.

I agree, and I'd like to add to keep an eye on the correct breathing as well, as part of the "form".

I think it's important to distinguish between what we mean by "muscular failure" though, as we may not all be on the same page.

What Coach seems to be saying is we shouldn't be afraid of going to "technical failure", which is the point where no matter how hard we try we cannot complete another rep with correct form and tempo. This is moderately intense on the recovery systems, but generally tolerable by most trainees.

Then you have "concentric failure", which is the point where no matter how hard you try or how bad your form you simply cannot move the resistance (in our case our body) against gravity. This is harder on the recovery systems and generally involves "grinding reps" and I think what Coach suggested we avoid.

Finally you have "eccentric/absolute failure" where you cannot even lower the resistance in control against gravity. This is very hard on the recovery systems and not a good idea to use on a regular basis or arguably at all.

I think Coach's comments about training through plateaus and his athlete who took 3 years to learn a flip were very enlightening and seem to suggest that sometimes we are actually not doing anything wrong or need to employ any fancy techniques and simply need to stay consistent and "keep digging", because we never know when the plateau will end, but if we keep changing our training thinking that we are doing something wrong then our body is never able to really adapt to our training.

Basically people get impatient and start trying to reinvent the wheel rather than just realizing that perhaps their body just needs more time and consistency to adapt.

I think the point is also that there are individualities regarding the distance between technical failure and concentric failure. For example, I can do many more reps if I consider concentric failure than with technical failure. To give an example, I think I can do 60 reps on FL/PE2 at concentric failure, 20 of which at technical failure. The same is true, for example, with RC/PE3 - 15r vs. 5r - or HBP/PE2. 

Probably this suggests to take more time to adapt.

Another interesting post that supports to not train to absolute failure... https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/16238-progressing-mid-week-eg-on-a-4-day-split/?fromsearch=1 The problem starts when people think that when due to muscle fatigue their brain tells them to stop while their bodies can perform let's say 5 more reps with correct form and tempo before they truly start losing form and tempo.

Spphysio said:

Another interesting post that supports to not train to absolute failure... https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/16238-progressing-mid-week-eg-on-a-4-day-split/?fromsearch=1 The problem starts e think that when due to muscle fatigue their brain tells them to stop while their bodies can perform let's say 5 more reps with correct form and tempo before they truly start losing form and tempo.

One or two okay, but not sure about five!

More often I observe this in static holds. Its harder to avoid the feelings of discomfort when you are fighting to remain motionless and easy to think you've hit your limit. Sometimes going towards failure-- holding on until that back arches, or that protraction fails, or that chin sinks below the bar-- seems to be the only way to drive home that discomfort is not failure and to push what they think are their limits

But Jon I think correct form and discomfort are not mutually exclusive, right? I mean, you can go though quite some discomfort with perfect form and only experiencing discomfort doesn't suffice to stop a set. I suppose our reaction to discomfort just depends on our individual character and commitment. 

Yes, you are saying the same thing as I am

Sticking it out until your form fails, not just relaxing because you are uncomfortable, very often shows you that you had substantially more in the tank

So Jon Douglas you support the use of <<Submaximal sets>> for example if you can do 4 x 12 sets with correct form and tempo but you cannot complete 4 x 15 the best approach is to use the 4 x 12 reps for 2 - 3 weeks or until you are able to complete the 4 x 15 with correct form and tempo? This will probably lead to faster progress in the long run. Do you agree?

Yes, of course. We are all on board with the fact that completing sets with sub-par form means leaving gains on the table, AFAIK.

But it is important to be working with the correct notion of what your maximum is too. Guessing at what % of my max I am working at wiithout any frame of reference is as haphazard as looking at foundation and picking a level to train at without testing the progressions. Sometimes fundamental issues exist preventing the normal rate of str acquisition in static holds; more often people cramp and worry about how much time is left on the clock and switch the set off in their heads hanging on another second or two is one thing, but it isn't as easy to keep hanging on another second or two, then another, until your timer beeps.

Just check on Alexs previous status conversation on whether manna training can be done without triceps cramps. Frankly, if triceps cramps were the only thing standing between me and a manna, i am fairly sure i could dig a little deeper but it isnt one time; its the conscious choice to accept and dig that little bit extra every session in the months leading up to that moment you realise your press somehow ended up horizontal today -- not something that occurs by training within ones comfort zone!

So yeah, discomfort. Most people don't have the experience of contracting so much so hard

Thats not to say I'm about suffering for the sake of it, but if you surprised yourself once and, say, hit 10minutes in wall runs hypothetically, that is the OBJECTIVE standard you are held to in the future. Can't stop at 2 because you're uncomfortable; you KNOW thats too low a fraction of your max. Facts and figures, not wishful thinking or arbitrary targets

Ps-

Typing on my phone, sorry if its not as coherent as my usual posts

It seems that pushing yourself is something that needs to be developed. I've found when I'm out of shape that I don't have the ability to push as hard. I can try but it's like the connection between the mind and the muscles isn't very strong and, despite my best efforts, the muscles don't contract very hard. This gets better with practice but, to an outside observer, it might look like you're not really trying.

I found it gets worse as I get older too. I really got out of shape for a couple of years. This was a while ago now but I feel like I'm still trying to climb out of that hole. I just don't have the work capacity or the general athletism I used to.

It is a matter of mental toughness rather than physical disability. The body does what the mind requires it to do; no more and no less.

Success is dependent upon the individual's perception of the discomfort inherent in hard conditioning. Some people, especially those who have been very physically inactive, may respond to the discomfort as punishment, horrible, agony - 'when will it end?'.

While some other people, who have been consistently training at a reasonable level of intensity, will respond positively to the same discomfort because they know in their 'bones' that that discomfort is the price of progress. Both are exposed to the same degree of discomfort, but two very different psychological reactions to the stress of training.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

So just to sum up things:

If we are hitting <<true>> physical failure before we've reached the target reps of the week we are working on with correct technique and we have also passed correctly mastery on previous elements.

Some approaches we can use:

- repeat the week we are on until we've reached our target rep range but not adding sets and rest to reach the target reps (ex. If we were on week 10 and have to complete 4 x 15 but we do 15, 15, 13, 10 we do not add rest and sets to reach the 15 reps on the 3rd 4th sets. We leave it as it is and try to increase reps every week untill we reach our target rep range). 

- Create a "mini-mini-cycle" that begins with a rep scheme we know we can hit, and gradually build up to the target we're failing to achieve. (for example increase the reps by 1 per week in every set).

- We can do a steady-state cycle at the hardest rep scheme you've successfully performed.

- Use submaximal ''quality sets'' leaving 1 or 2 reps before failure in the tank (This approach is used a lot in the Strength world ex. Westside Barbell approach) - This might be used if we have seen that we have stalled for a long time and nothing works.

- Go back a microcycle and work up again from there.

- We can take as much rest as we need to hit our target, and gradually decrease that rest to zero.   I believe this approach should be used really sporadically because its heavy on the CNS - because we might be touching <<true physical failure>> on several sets.

-Increase Volume of the stalled exercise (Suggested by RF_Guy https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/16547-high-volume-to-overcome-plateau/?hl=+increasing%20+volume%20+mastery)

-Isometrics might also be used in the end of the workout.

-Change between different 12 week templates from 4 days a week to 3 and etc.

These are not my ideas. Credits goes to Joshua Slocum who wrote most of these approaches on the post ''How to know when to stop a set''

Coach Sommer said:

It is a matter of mental toughness rather than physical disability. The body does what the mind requires it to do; no more and no less.

Success if dependent upon the individual's perception of the discomfort inherent in hard conditioning. Some people, especially those who have been very physically inactive, may respond to the discomfort as punishment, horrible, agony - 'when will it end?'.

While some other people, who have been consistently training at a reasonable level of intensity, will respond positively to the same discomfort because they know in their 'bones' that that discomfort is the price of progress. Both are exposed to the same degree of discomfort, but two very different psychological reactions to the stress of training.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

In my case, I'm not really referring to discomfort as there isn't much. It's more like developing the ability to create discomfort through which to push. Not sure how to describe it except that it's like you can't recruit very many muscle fibers. With time and practice I become able to push harder and I don't mind doing so.  I've also had muscles turn off entirely but I suppose that's a different thing.

But then, I'm just thrilled to walk down the street without pain so maybe I'm not a typical example.

You might be a rare exception Hansenator, but IME most (though not all) inactive/deconditioned people simply don't really know how to push themselves hard, but if pushed by someone else will experience plenty of discomfort in their muscles. Then, as Coach so eloquently put it, whether they are able to push through that discomfort and keep working or mentally (and therefore physically) quit is primarily dependent on their mental toughness and determination to succeed/progress.

Better conditioned athletes usually are more mentally strong/tough and simply are willing to push through greater levels of fatigue and discomfort (not the same as injury pain, though some are willing to do that as well) than less conditioned athletes.

My Martial Arts Instructor used to have a sign up on the wall at his previous school that read "Winners are simply willing to do what losers are not." I think that puts things pretty succinctly.

I tried the "push myself to hell and back" method, in the end it mentally/physically/emotionally drained me for several months.  It was only the last 2-3 weeks that I have started to recover from it.  In fact the current cycle I am on, I have  progressed on either minicycle or to the next progression for 5 out of the 7 elements.

No one said anything about "to hell and back". This approach almost always entails working far past the point of being able to maintain proper tempo and form.

Most people however stop far short of what they are capable of while maintaining correct form and tempo.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Hmm yes, a lot of times I have kept going for multiple reps even when I lost tempo.  So okay, when tempo is lost, stop the set.