Here is an example of U-bar split squat.
In my opinion it is the safest and most effective way to continue leg development while minimizing risk, especially to low back.
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Weighted Lunge vs Single Leg Squat
Started by Alan Tseng, December 23, 2013 · 101 Replies · 6,374 Views
I'd like to know more regarding your evidence suggesting there is no need to develop a squat over two times body weight in elite sports where leg power and speed are key as I haven't seen anything to suggest that. Most elite sprinters and weightlifters are over 2.5 to 3 times and for sprinters it correlates to a faster acceleration phase. The squat is easy to teach, spot and work on as opposed to various other lifts where some technique is involved and what do you give up at the track to pursue technical improvements in the gym? I'm speaking from a sprint perspective. In weightlifting in my gym the international lifters have 3 times body weight squats and would have more if they could but clearly squats are pretty important to a weightlifter. I agree one legged stuff is important but in my experience and from coaches ive had the pleasure of discussing programming with I haven't seen it replace squats for safety or performance reasons in weightlifting or sprinting.
Brad Mifsud said:I'd like to know more regarding your evidence suggesting there is no need to develop a squat over two times body weight in elite sports where leg power and speed are key as I haven't seen anything to suggest that. Most elite sprinters and weightlifters are over 2.5 to 3 times and for sprinters it correlates to a faster acceleration phase.
Incorrect
Google scholar should sort you out.
But to get you started: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19675504/
Sprinters with a squat to body weight ratio of < or = 1.90 (less then 2x body weight) were faster then those who's ratios were > 2.10 (squat more then 2x body weight)
Even if there are outliers...the risk isn't worth the reward.
I've had the pleasure of training olympic athletes and AFL players. Even in vollyball where vertical jump is critical, we don't train back squats to that extreme.
That isn't to say we don't squat...we squat heaps...and deadlift and power clean. But we don't approach such high weights, focus more on volume and strict form.
Max lifts expose athletes to undo risk and delay recovery...without getting any significant gain.
You reference weight lifters....sure...if your going to clean 200kg...you need to catch and squat out of it...or you a powerlifter and it is the sport itself.
As a coach my role is
1) not to hurt the athlete in training
2) prevent injury within the sport (corrective/prehab)
Then and only then
3) improve performance through strength and conditioning techniques relevant.
Adam R. Durst said:I disagree,
In my experence lunges/Bulgarian split squats and deadlift work is far safer the heavy squats.
Can you explain to me how heavy deadlifts are safer than heavy squats. Deadlifts use and stress the lower back more than any variation of squats. Only thing I can see safer about deadlifts is that you don't need a spotter.
Sorry...I was referring to single leg deadlift work in the above example.
Hoewever with good form athletes, learn to load glutes and hamstrings in a deadlift. Range can be reduced, by raise load onto blocks.
Squat...especially in modern shoes let's people dominate the quads, lets off the calf and does load the glutes and hamstrings.
Therefore it is not corrective in bringing glutes into dominance for most movements...such as jumping...which is mainly about an explosive hip extension.
The lunge also teaches good deceleration control...very applicable to any athlete the moves and changes direction and has to control velocity.
Most people lack the mobility to squat heavy, deep and safe. They hang their spine on connective tissue in lordosis. TheN Once they get near 90degrees the butt winks under and the spine double backs....you have to have good mobility and actually draw yourself down into the squat with your hip flexors to keep proper pelvic tilt. Squatting to/past 90 is important to get enough stretch I the hamstrings to balance the sheering forces on the knee from the quads.
I would to know what Coach, Daniel, Adam, and Mark think about the Sissy Squat? Seeing that leg exercises in general are extremely limited to what you can do with them, in actual application which in this case is strength specific; do you think it wouldn't harm to mess around with them for a single 3 month GST cycle?
I saw that weight lunges were basically the pinnacle you'll achieve for foundational strength then Coach mentions going onward to something far more grand in mind..(once basic strength and mobility are achieved of course..).
My thoughts were that since any goals of mine involving hypertrophy are either going to be put aside for now to pursue this...is the sissy squat an exercise you can get away with to gain some hypertrophy for aesthetic purposes yet it also carries over to weighted lunges and not lose the ability to do greater things later on?
I also would like to know anyone's thoughts on these two videos demonstrating leg exercises. One is going against what Coach said with no weighted squats yet he is a high level gymnast and the other is what I was most curious about with inclusion towards my own training.
(Edit: Cannot find that particular video with the high level gymnast I'm afraid. There's a video floating around Youtube showing how he does weight strength training first and then gymnastics later on. There's a 5-7 second snap shot of him squatting a considerable weight ATG.)
http://www.muscleandfitness.com/workouts/legs-exercises/sissy-squat-more-quad-strength
My own thoughts are though is that I believe it's highly doable if halved and put more of an emphasis on GST based traing and only 1-3 days consisting of actual leg specific work that could include hypertrophy work but it would always be done either first thing in the morning or later on in the evening with gymnastic training done first early in the day with plenty of hours in between for resting recovery and nutrition to aid this. I'm seeing a strong correlation to elite athletes I've witness in general who participate in more than one en devour that if they do so...they are also eating to support the demand.
It would allow them to have some satisfactory aesthetic gains but it shouldn't inhibit them from still progressing in their skills. They just know that they won't be moving forward as fast with the progressions as they would if they purely focused on it.
Again this kinda points back to Coach's idea of slowly building up the work load capability once past Foundation and Handstand. You could do weighted squats and other foundational barbell movements for advanced strength training once you've already established bodyweight based work.
Though since I've have yet to see what the nature of the Ring Series, Movement Series, and the Bulgarian Series looks like...this is just moot talk for now.
The high-level gymnast you're referring to is Epke Zonderland, 2013 world champion on high bar (and fellow countryman of mine 
):
Adam R. Durst said:Sorry...I was referring to single leg deadlift work in the above example.
Hoewever with good form athletes, learn to load glutes and hamstrings in a deadlift. Range can be reduced, by raise load onto blocks.
Squat...especially in modern shoes let's people dominate the quads, lets off the calf and does load the glutes and hamstrings.
Therefore it is not corrective in bringing glutes into dominance for most movements...such as jumping...which is mainly about an explosive hip extension.
The lunge also teaches good deceleration control...very applicable to any athlete the moves and changes direction and has to control velocity.
Most people lack the mobility to squat heavy, deep and safe. They hang their spine on connective tissue in lordosis. TheN Once they get near 90degrees the butt winks under and the spine double backs....you have to have good mobility and actually draw yourself down into the squat with your hip flexors to keep proper pelvic tilt. Squatting to/past 90 is important to get enough stretch I the hamstrings to balance the sheering forces on the knee from the quads.
Thanks for the explanation! Would you highly recommend ATG squats if you had the mobility to do them safely?
Adam R. Durst said:Incorrect
Google scholar should sort you out.
But to get you started: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19675504/
Sprinters with a squat to body weight ratio of < or = 1.90 (less then 2x body weight) were faster then those who's ratios were > 2.10 (squat more then 2x body weight)
Even if there are outliers...the risk isn't worth the reward.
I've had the pleasure of training olympic athletes and AFL players. Even in vollyball where vertical jump is critical, we don't train back squats to that extreme.
That isn't to say we don't squat...we squat heaps...and deadlift and power clean. But we don't approach such high weights, focus more on volume and strict form.
Max lifts expose athletes to undo risk and delay recovery...without getting any significant gain.
You reference weight lifters....sure...if your going to clean 200kg...you need to catch and squat out of it...or you a powerlifter and it is the sport itself.
As a coach my role is
1) not to hurt the athlete in training
2) prevent injury within the sport (corrective/prehab)
Then and only then
3) improve performance through strength and conditioning techniques relevant.
Mate you should read the study, it says a higher squat strength correlated to a lower time which is better. Thanks for the link and providing evidence for my argument. It's great that you have some experience with training sportsmen but as always you have to weigh up time available with priorities. In gymnastics it appears over 2 times body weight from reading coach's posts it doesn't further improve gymnastic ability. However for a sprinter and many other sports (of which I would suggest afl isn't one) where hip power is paramount the squat is king for time invested, heavy load and safety. I would suggest you are probably right about the exercises and your training for the sports you are involved in, but one size certainly doesn't fit all and the back is just as important in the chain for sprinters and others as the glutes so the squat fits well into a program that includes lots of other work to develop speed and power.
As a side note I'd probably support your general observations about sedentary people and squats etc but they are a vastly different population to gymnasts who are different to afl to sprinters etc etc.
Brad Mifsud said:Mate you should read the study, it says a higher squat strength correlated to a lower time which is better.
You'll have to explain how the findings
"Subjects with a 1RM/BM above 2.10 had statistically significantly lower sprint times at 10 and 40 yards in comparison with those subjects with a 1RM/BM ratio below 1.90. This investigation provides additional evidence of the possible importance of maximal squat strength relative to BM concerning sprinting capabilities in competitive athletes."
Make the claim of bigger squat equals faster sprint time?
Michaël said:The high-level gymnast you're referring to is Epke Zonderland, 2013 world champion on high bar (and fellow countryman of mine
Michaël said:The high-level gymnast you're referring to is Epke Zonderland, 2013 world champion on high bar (and fellow countryman of mine
AH the missing link! Yes that's him. 
Lower sprint time is faster. I thought that was obvious?
- Of course, as Epke is not that good on either floor or vault, that training video might be construed as making a case that squats have an adverse effect on tumbling. 😉
- All kidding aside, I have already pointed out several programs which have employed heavy squat variations and several which have not.
- It should also be pointed out that most sprinters use either a 1/2 or 1/4 squat; not ATG.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Brad Mifsud said:Lower sprint time is faster. I thought that was obvious?
Your misunderstanding the ratio.
A 1RM (one rep max) / bw (body weight) ratio.
Let's work it out together
200kg squat/90kg athlete = 200/90 = 2.222 (slower)
160kg squat/90kg = 160/90 = 1.77 (faster)
A ratio of 2.1 indicates a squat of >2x body weight.
The athletes with squats over 2x body weight had lower sprint times.
Adam R. Durst said:Your misunderstanding the ratio.
A 1RM (one rep max) / bw (body weight) ratio.
Let's work it out together
200kg squat/90kg athlete = 200/90 = 2.222 (slower)
160kg squat/90kg = 160/90 = 1.77 (faster)
A ratio of 2.1 indicates a squat of >2x body weight.
The athletes with squats over 2x body weight had lower sprint times.
YYes so a bigger squat compared to body weight correlated with a faster or lower time. When sprinting generally lower is better ie 10 seconds is lower then 11 seconds for 100 meters and is better.
Yes your correct with that study...my fault for rushing, responding late at night and not giving the attention needed and pulling the first study from google.
Still I would never train athletes at or near their 1RM.
Adam R. Durst said:Yes your correct with that study...my fault for rushing, responding late at night and not giving the attention needed and pulling the first study from google.
Still I would never train athletes at or near their 1RM.
No drama mate! The way they classified the results ie lower was dumb. It is problematic to read abstracts but who has time or the subscription to go through the study in full (unless you are in research)?
I agree on training at or near 1RM too for 99% of athletes. If you are training and getting stronger at 3 or 5 reps I guess you can predict the 1RM is going up without the real need to have a crack.
While...I dig myself deeper
I'll try a dig up the research I had seen prior. It was a few years ago, while studying EXSci...good access to journals and requirement to read lots for assignments.
Certainly the bulk of evidence supports your view.
Some of this might be the bias I find in the S&C community, towards strength development. And all with a grain of salt...
-all the best coaches have science catch-up with them...not them chasing science.
-someone once told me the something like 90% of every published scientific finding ever had been disproven or contradicted with another scientific finding at some point.
However, the premise was that while Max Strength is the root of power...at a certain stage of development...the return will diminish, while risk will continue to increase. I've heard Dan John, Pavel, Ian King, Michael Boyel, and Verkhoshansky (author of Super Training, one of the bests textbooks on S&C training) all espouse this view.
Also if you look at the worlds best powerlifters...they are clearly not the best sprinters...and they are the definition of max strength. Olympic lifters are the definition of power and might make it to 5 meters first (assuming even reaction time), but again are not the best sprinters. So clearly max strength does not equal max power does not equal fastest 100-200meter sprint. They are related (hence the scientific correlation) but not linearly.
Power needs to be developed specifically (as a quality and for the sport)...strength is a nessecary, but not suffice requirement. lots of factors contribute to an athlete developing force quickly. Such as Motor control and muscle activation (pattern and % of spindles), type of muscle fiber, and specific development of the muscle through training, including quality and hydration of fascia.
I focus to getting athletes safely to certain benchmarks of strength...and then shift focus more on converting the strength to power. For example getting the power clean to squat ratio as close as possible. Or doing plyometric front squats, depth jumps etc. The standards are sport dependent, but for most athletes a quality full range ~1.5x body weight squat is enough and most of this at higher effective legs loads is single leg work. (Split squats, step-up with loads upto ~bw). And yes we up the load for reduced range such a rack-pull deadlifts or use isometrics in sticking and/transition points.
We wait a fair while prior to introducing weighted plyometric work...even > a year if the athlete has a really low training age
Coach is right that many different training protocols can and do work. And there are gold level athletes that prove many strategies will work. Some better, more consistently and safer then others.
Lots of athletes use machines for max strength development, to reduce risk...we don't use any machines except cable machines, as we like and focus on human movement...and think machines mess up an athletes body awareness and muscle activation patterning.
I've never worked with sprinters (would love too)...but a 2xBW 1/4 squat is very different then 2xBW ATG front squat or full range back squat.
Acceleration is only one part of sprinting as well...??first 20-30meters?? Top speed would rely I'd think more on technique, posture and synergistic body control, speed work and specifically leg return and pre-tensing motor control patterning for foot strike.
Every sport is different...and therefore has different specific training demands...but GPP is relatively consistent.
For AFL athletes...we don't care how much they can max bench...but if they can't bench BW for a couple reps...it throws up a red flag...why? Nutrition? Sleep? Mobility? Injury?
I think to date the bulk of "strength and conditioning" coaches have been to focused on max strength and not enough on injury prevention.
Our athletes get hours of sports specific training that causes imbalances and mobility issues...I focus my effort in these areas...make sure they make it to game day...and don't ruin there life for xx competitive years.
My experience leads me to believe...the best thing an athlete can do is participate and practice their sport. And in the gym, make themselves holistically bulletproof not the 1RM king.
There is no training more sports specific...then the sport itself.
I like these discussions...training philosophy.
As for Sissy Squats...never used them, so unsure.
We often use "shoot-lunges" for our volleyballers to train powerful quads...so they can move forward fast and low in the sand. Comes from shoot wrestling and is a powerful forward lunge staying super low and moving over the front foot...almost dragging the rear leg under.
Wow...apparently I had an opinion and nothing better to do...sorry for the massive response...I guess making up for a bruised ego
Back in my uni days I did an honors degree in exercise physiology and what I found is that science barely knew anything in comparison with coaches or trainers getting results especially in sports where an aspect of fitness determined performance as in track and field. At least now there is a little science to back up what many coaches know. It's always the case when putting together a program that you are working out whether time spent can be used more productively doing something else with each athlete depending on a number of factors. This is why this foundation program is so coool to follow. It's set out by someone that has taken many people through to successfully achieving these exercises. Great ddiscussion appreciate your responses! The reason I'm here is many and varied but mainly because I'm a 39 yr old guy who is getting tighter and tighter doing gym and lifting, and with a young family can't spend two hours at the track or gym (but I can hang out with them in a park or my garage!). Anyway look forward to more great discussions as I'm very interested in what makes these gymnasts tick while I practice stretching my shoulders and touching my toes to the bars (damn you mn6!!).
I would not recommend sissy squats as you can use a lot of weight that often exceeds a safe level for the spine. You would be better off mastering all of the SLS exercises. Most people that are good at sissy or quarter squats are terrible at full squats due to poor mobility and motor control. Unless you have a muscle imbalance where you need bigger quads, which is highly unlikely you are only going to develop asymmetries by chasing isolated hypertrophy. This will only make it harder to do the Foundation exercises.
If you still really want some better quads full back and front squats would be the best exercises. There is a reason they are called sissy squats:)
KeilaniG said:this has been a very illuminating discussion since im currently working on a fastidious level of APT and inactive glutes.
it's been brought to my attention and has been something i've been working on the past six months, first, through gearing my warm ups to include glute activation like prone leg lifts, swivel hips for mobility and for a time i used jefferson curls, then( post workout) with stretches for piriformis and hip flexors and a few other poses like frog split and butterfly pose.
I understand that this is an F3 material discussion, but is there a tool I can use through the use of an iM as a post mobility cooldown and/or warm up to be only used under the condition that i can already master the previous iM's that lead upto it to assist in glute activation? i've experimented doing supine body lines and swiss ball leg extension but i feel that there is a point where
my body just won't let me get those last inches of movement that i need to master (a variety) of elements.)
or could unweighted Lunges serve me with this? (keeping clear in m mind that weight comes when the previous PE's/SE's and iM's have been mastered)
Are you having difficulty with the glutes in hip flexion, extension, mid range or all ranges? When are they functionally not working? Sometimes the glutes are strong enough but they are just not being used at the right time and functionally through the day. If it just a motor control issue it is usually a matter of consciously activating when you are meant to and the problem should resolve in 2 weeks.
K;
It probably wasn't any one element for me, but the real magic was noticeable when I began doing 1/2 and then full GHR with a straight body. I've totally picked up the daily lower body warmup sequence Coach mentioned (although I've dropped the reps a little to keep it to warm-up intensity) and feel excellent for it. I could swear my PPT has strongly improved in the past week or so, amongst other things, which has obviously had effects on many other elements.
Could someone elaborate on the Daily Lower Body warmup sequence?
That sounds like something I'd like to use.
Do you just perform the warmup SLS exercises and IM's to right below your current Level?
21-15-9 sequence?
This warmup is mentioned in the foundation series intro I believe. This how you should warmup all your elements.