Weighted Lunge vs Single Leg Squat

I would also like to point out that all my athletes easily performed 10 SLS and all of the SLS iMs flawlessly in their daily warmup.

As I mentioned previously, in my opinion if you haven't mastered SLS and all of the SLS iMs you have no business attempting to move on to weighted leg work. None whatsoever.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thanks for humouring me looking forward to reaching SparkleBear / Lab Rat status.

(Psst, Cory. An 'Official GBodies Lab Rat' shirt would be awesome)

EDIT;

Thanks for the warmup tidbit too.That was SLS and all the IMs daily? Regardless of whether they were doing dedicated leg strength that day?

Jon Douglas said:

...That was SLS and all the IMs daily? Regardless of whether they were doing dedicated leg strength that day? ...

As I said, these low level exercises were not considered strength training for my athletes, but merely warmup elements.

Don't feel too bad. You guys will get there ................. eventually! We just have to keep raising your expectations.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

Yep.

As I said, these low level exercises were not considered strength training for my athletes, but merely warmup elements.

Don't feel too bad. You guys will get there ................. eventually!

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

The rest I can see, but seriously including nlc and ghr work daily?!

You bet.

10 reps of SLS, NLC, nGHR, NLE and all the SLS iMs everyday as a part of warmup and God help the athlete who was dawdling! There was also no rest whatsoever. Everything in that segment of the warmup was completed in about 5-8 min. This was warmup after all.

Don't be overly concerned about your current perceived lack of work capacity. First we build strength and mobility, then we build work capacity.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Do you do the same for the other 6 elements and their respective iM's in the warm ups?

Coach Sommer said:

Don't be overly concerned about your current perceived lack of work capacity

Well, I wasn't until now....

Thoroughly impressive as always. Thanks a lot for this discussion and a happy new year from Australia

In a few instances, however for the most part the athletes had moved on far past those basic exercises and their iMs.

For example, my athletes warmed up on the rope with a triple (three laps up and down 6m rope), and two doubles (two laps up and down) with everyone completing their three sets of rope climbs in approx 5 minutes. No rest, simply go again once the guy in front of you had finished. At their level rope climbs were no longer a max strength element but rather a tool to warm up with and to maintain joint health or to cool down with after ring strength.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I don't like lunges or bulgarian split squats much due to the fact that both are notorious for intense glute and hamstring muscle soreness which has to do a lot with muscle's length-tension relationships(in lunges the glutes are hit in the flexed end-range) which makes the exercises not that suitable for high frequency training(although you don't necessarily have to train legs that often unless you have specific leg strength goals). But FLS is not the only leg work in F3/F4, FL iMs, the one leg bridge work can be very intense for glutes without producing any soreness.

I love DB/KB SWINGS and I prefer them over deadlifts  -- I think they would be great for gymnastic strength thanks to the dynamic and explosive nature of the movement.

Coach,

Have you used shrimp squats with your athletes. I am continuing my leg work during my shoulder recovery and have been alternating between shrimp squats and lunges. It is difficult for me to load the lunges adequately since I can't hold weight in both hands. I can hold about half my weight in one hand before the motion becomes awkward. I've been doing these slowly to continue to get glute activation but don't find them difficult at half body weight.

Daniel Burnham said:

Have you used shrimp squats with your athletes.

...

I've been doing these slowly to continue to get glute activation but don't find them difficult at half body weight.

Coach Sommer said:

At their level rope climbs were no longer a max strength element but rather a tool to warm up with and to maintain joint health or to cool down with after ring strength.

 

Coach Sommer said:

10 reps of SLS, NLC, nGHR, NLE and all the SLS iMs everyday as a part of warmup and God help the athlete who was dawdling! There was also no rest whatsoever. Everything in that segment of the warmup was completed in about 5-8 min. This was warmup after all.

I need to stop reading the F4 forum.

Coach Sommer said:

Don't be overly concerned about your current perceived lack of work capacity. First we build strength and mobility, then we build work capacity.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach, do you athletes perform any other type of work capacity training? I'm thinking of the Ross Enamait type - Burpees, Sprinter Lunges, Jump Rope etc.. on a weekly basis?

Coach Sommer said:

I would also like to point out that all my athletes easily performed 10 SLS and all of the SLS iMs flawlessly in their daily warmup.

 

For example, my athletes warmed up on the rope with a triple (three laps up and down 6m rope), and two doubles (two laps up and down) with everyone completing their three sets of rope climbs in approx 5 minutes. No rest, simply go again once the guy in front of you had finished. 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach would you be kind enough to provide a general outline or a timeline of the your athletes daily warmup, from the time they step into the building? And overall duration. Does it go something like this:

Sprints to warmup

Dynamic Mobility Exercises

Easier versions of GST elements - rope climbs, SLS, etc...following the 21-15-9 model

These are things that I will share later once more people are ready for it. In the mean time I prefer for people to take care of first things first; in this instance that equates to mastering Foundation and Handstand before attempting more advanced training.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

These are things that I will share

 

Like like like like like!

Opposite ends of the spectrum....

Crossfit...you are oly lifting in 30min and injured by the end of the week.

Concerned that starting this seriously (as prescribed) at 32 will mean I spend the rest of my life getting a 2min handstand, hollow back press, planche, flag etc....oh wait...that sounds awesome!

But I personally believe a lot of other training methods and tools can be incorporated at least at the end of F1 if not far prior. If for no other reason then variety...as Pavel suggests..."same but different"!

Coach is right about max lifts! They fry athletes, cause injury and don't lead to gains, prolong recovery...Pavel and Dan John's: Easy Strength lays out good rationale and protocols.

Jon Douglas said:

I don't do standard desk patrol but inactive glutes were giving me trouble. Foundation 2 IMs fixed this in short order; although I'm not a stranger to the exercises i guess i hadnt been performing them quite right. The difference is massive and might be the most profound single change from following Foundation work. Just about everything physical improved several degrees in about two weeks when my hips and glutes started doing what they were supposed to. Analogous in all around improvement to having my traps learn to fire correctly from H1 work.

Sounds like you found a PCF(primary contributing factor) that is responsible for many dysfunctions. It is amazing how when one part of the body is not working well it can cause problems in many areas of the body. Once you correct the main problem, which for you was inactive glutes the other secondary problems resolve very fast. Make sure you always include these iM exercises as for you they will help to prevent accumulative strain injuries in the future and improve how well your body performs.

I agree 100% with Mark. 

When a disfunction or trauma occurs in a tissue, there is always a particular segment of the spinal cord that the receptors answer to. As long as that local origin continues to send a message to the spinal cord, the body will form and maintain secondary areas of disturbance (segment-reflex zones). These areas then have a much lower threshold of stimulation and will react even to weak stimuli. Given enough time, it will create a nasty feedback loops that makes the original problem and the secondary reaction irritate each other further and so both grow worse. If you treat only the secondary reaction, the primary issue will simply create the secondary problem again. Addressing the origin and the secondary issues together is key.

For example, a great deal of surgeries for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome are unsuccessful simply because the wrist pain is not the primary problem. There are five points where the median nerve that causes wrist pain can be compromised; and the wrist is at the distal end of all this. So what often happens is the patient has surgery on the Carpal Tunnel, and because they are under anesthesia, the muscles at the origin of the problem also relax. Post surgery, the patient has no pain, the doctor pats himself on the back and proceeds to buy himself a new Tesla. Meanwhile, the origin (e.g. Anterior Scalene) starts sending messages to the spinal cord again and in a couple months the wrist pain returns. 

Many of the Foundation exercises (and mobility in particular) are so effective because they effect both local tissue and the nervous system. And because they are progressive, the solution sneaks in the back door and can fix the issue without the body putting up a guard. 

Cory Fair said:

I agree 100% with Mark. 

 

When a disfunction or trauma occurs in a tissue, there is always a particular segment of the spinal cord that the receptors answer to. As long as that local origin continues to send a message to the spinal cord, the body will form and maintain secondary areas of disturbance (segment-reflex zones). These areas then have a much lower threshold of stimulation and will react even to weak stimuli. Given enough time, it will create a nasty feedback loops that makes the original problem and the secondary reaction irritate each other further and so both grow worse. If you treat only the secondary reaction, the primary issue will simply create the secondary problem again. Addressing the origin and the secondary issues together is key.

 

For example, a great deal of surgeries for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome are unsuccessful simply because the wrist pain is not the primary problem. There are five points where the median nerve that causes wrist pain can be compromised; and the wrist is at the distal end of all this. So what often happens is the patient has surgery on the Carpal Tunnel, and because they are under anesthesia, the muscles at the origin of the problem also relax. Post surgery, the patient has no pain, the doctor pats himself on the back and proceeds to buy himself a new Tesla. Meanwhile, the origin (e.g. Anterior Scalene) starts sending messages to the spinal cord again and in a couple months the wrist pain returns. 

 

Many of the Foundation exercises (and mobility in particular) are so effective because they effect both local tissue and the nervous system. And because they are progressive, the solution sneaks in the back door and can fix the issue without the body putting up a guard. 

hi Cory

 Lately ive researching and i have most of the syntom of carpal tunnel syndrome.  My little finger go numb sometime and grip is weakned. I dont feel any pain when im training i feel it mostly when im cold.

I feel the pain come all the way from the neck to shoulder to underarm and finaly little finger. i find some streches this area and got some tips from Kit laughlin book  and dvd overcoming RSI

you have any advice on this problem?

Thanks 

Boris, I'd recommend avoiding medical questions here and would discuss with your doc.  doesn't sound like carpal tunnel syndrome to me.  You've got more the nerve distribution of a cervical impingement or cubital tunnel syndrome.  

MT Nordic said:

Boris, I'd recommend avoiding medical questions here and would discuss with your doc.  doesn't sound like carpal tunnel syndrome to me.  You've got more the nerve distribution of a cervical impingement or cubital tunnel syndrome.  

oki. sorry was a little off topic iknow and yes i mean cubital tunnel syndrome. 

Cory Fair said:

I agree 100% with Mark. 

 

Many of the Foundation exercises (and mobility in particular) are so effective because they effect both local tissue and the nervous system. And because they are progressive, the solution sneaks in the back door and can fix the issue without the body putting up a guard.

As Foundation covers many different exercises a lot of secondary problems are cleared up and then when you find a primary the improvement is dramatic and usually in four or more different areas of the body. This is what happened with Jon. If he only worked on doing SLS and never the iM's he most likely would have never discovered that the poor gluteals was holding him back in many areas of his body.

You never know which exercise will correct a primary contributing factor, so it is important get as most out of each exercise as possible. I am discovering this with the standing weighted oblique stretch. I thought it would be so simple. Yet I discovered an asymmetry in my lower back and I side bend with too much extension. That one exercise which in the past I would have looked at and thought it was too easy for me has been so beneficial.

this has been a very illuminating discussion since im currently working on a fastidious level of APT and inactive glutes.

it's been brought to my attention and has been something i've been working on the past six months, first, through gearing my warm ups to include glute activation like prone leg lifts, swivel hips for mobility and for a time i used jefferson curls, then( post workout) with stretches for piriformis and hip flexors and a few other poses like frog split and butterfly pose.

I understand that this is an F3 material discussion, but is there a tool I can use through the use of an iM as a post mobility cooldown and/or warm up to be only used under the condition that i can already master the previous iM's that lead upto it to assist in glute activation? i've experimented doing supine body lines and swiss ball leg extension but i feel that there is a point where

my body just won't let me get those last inches of movement that i need to master (a variety) of elements.)

or could unweighted Lunges serve me with this? (keeping clear in m mind that weight comes when the previous PE's/SE's and iM's have been mastered)

Body weight lunges are probably a good bet.

Great thread! From a sprinting perspective one legged exercises are used at times but the main thing for lifting heavy (which is essential) is safety so squats are inherently safer for over 2x body weight (upto 3times bodyweight) levels of weight then continuing to load a lunge higher and higher.

Brad Mifsud said:

Great thread! From a sprinting perspective one legged exercises are used at times but the main thing for lifting heavy (which is essential) is safety so squats are inherently safer for over 2x body weight (upto 3times bodyweight) levels of weight then continuing to load a lunge higher and higher.

I disagree,

In my experence lunges/Bulgarian split squats and deadlift work is far safer the heavy squats.

The load is cut in half and leverage angles are more effective then a weighted back squat.

For the equivient weight/work to be done with a bilateral movement...the weight has to be doubled...additional loading on the spine etc.

Evidence suggests there in no benefit for anyone except powerlifters in pursuing a greater then 2x body weight squat....which works out to < or = to a split squat loaded with the equivient of body weight. Half the stress on the rest of the athlete...same stimulous to target muscles.

With athletes (and everyone really) injury minimization should be primary objective - both in training protocol and overall prevention. Can win if you can't show-up.

To many athletes get hurt training.