Weighted Lunge vs Single Leg Squat

I'm wondering about the change from single leg squats in F1+2 to lunges in F3. I know they're focusing on a single leg but there's a difference since ones supported (lunge) while other one isn't (SLS)

Is it because as weight gets heavier, it'll become troublesome for lower back since in SLS it's flexed under load while lunge has a neutral spine? Or is it a men's gymnastics reason?

The lunge is more of a 1.5 leg squat. It is probably Coach Sommer's preferred leg exercises for his gymnasts. I believe ATG barbell squats (front or back) are superior leg exercises for overall leg strength and olympic lifts are great for building power for the legs.

B1214N said:

It is probably Coach Sommer's preferred leg exercises for his gymnasts.

My question is referring to why he prefers weighted lunges over weighted SLS for his program

I was surprised as well...mostly because I'm still stuck on some SLS elements from F1 (looking at you, Twisting Squats, haha) and the series culminates with something I could do before I started the Foundation series.  Having said that, everything else in F3 & 4 looks hard as hell....

There's a very good reason for this, which will be revealed in future material.

bamartens said:

I was surprised as well...mostly because I'm still stuck on some SLS elements from F1 (looking at you, Twisting Squats, haha) and the series culminates with something I could do before I started the Foundation series.  Having said that, everything else in F3 & 4 looks hard as hell....

Foundation is not about achieving the final poses. It's about building a base of strength and mobility. That you can do an SLS already is immaterial: if you're having trouble with twisting squats, your leg strength/mobility is not up to par.

I was definitely surprised with this as well, and I'm glad to hear there is a reason for it. I just hope I don't have to wait too long to find that reason out!

Joshua Slocum said:

 if you're having trouble with twisting squats, your leg strength/mobility is not up to par.

As I've been made painfully aware, and not just with the SLS.  To be clear though, I was referring to a lunge with a barbell load equal to bodyweight, not pistols.

SLS and lunge and not stand alone exercise. we are talking about foundation to build up a strong body for the high level skills. just to make an example. lunge are working hard for glutes more than single leg squat...what do you think are the muscles involved is a bacic backward handspring of backflip? the famous "think about sitting down" then "push just before to fall", stop the movement here. the legs is pushing in the same exactly direction of the lunge. nothing is made by a chance.

B1214N said:

The lunge is more of a 1.5 leg squat. It is probably Coach Sommer's preferred leg exercises for his gymnasts. I believe ATG barbell squats (front or back) are superior leg exercises for overall leg strength and olympic lifts are great for building power for the legs.

Why do you think ATG squats an oly lifts are superior? As someone with little to no barbell expertise, I'm curious what the differences are. 

Not that I'm complaining because Coach and the team know's far more then myself, however, I'm a bit annoyed that I've been able to single leg squat for the better part of a year, confused on the next programming for lower leg, and I've been treated to weighted lunges. It's a tad bit annoying, especially considering the time I've waited for this. 

Joshua Slocum said:

Why do you think ATG squats an oly lifts are superior? As someone with little to no barbell expertise, I'm curious what the differences are. 

I hear most people with experience in both say that squats are an overall better leg exercise than lunges and should be the staple exercise for the lower body while lunges make a great assistance exercise and should not replace squats. Another reason is that since squats are a bilateral exercise instead of a semi-unilateral exercise like lunges, you can load them better and saves you some time. I never tried Olympic lifts yet, but I always hear that they are the best exercises to build explosive power and starting strength in the lower body. Olympic lifters also happen to be the most explosive from something like 0-15 meters in a sprint and many sprinters use power cleans and hang cleans too in their training. I'm sure someone like Alex Chubb can give you a better explanation about this subject than me.

B1214N said:

I hear most people with experience in both say that squats are an overall better leg exercise than lunges and should be the staple exercise for the lower body while lunges make a great assistance exercise and should not replace squats. Another reason is that since squats are a bilateral exercise instead of a semi-unilateral exercise like lunges, you can load them better and saves you some time. I never tried Olympic lifts yet, but I always hear that they are the best exercises to build explosive power and starting strength in the lower body. Olympic lifters also happen to be the most explosive from something like 0-15 meters in a sprint and many sprinters use power cleans and hang cleans too in their training. I'm sure someone like Alex Chubb can give you a better explanation about this subject than me.

As we are using 'just' bodyweight here, I find it easier to squat than to lunge... it strikes me as squats being named a superior exercise because they lend themselves to more weight. So it follows that it's a no-brainer if your goal is to lift more weight... not necessarily if you define leg strength differently. Which would be superior if the weight is kept constant and a fraction of eg) a max squat?

Jon Douglas said:

As we are using 'just' bodyweight here, I find it easier to squat than to lunge... it strikes me as squats being named a superior exercise because they lend themselves to more weight. So it follows that it's a no-brainer if your goal is to lift more weight... not necessarily if you define leg strength differently. Which would be superior if the weight is kept constant and a fraction of eg) a max squat?

I'm sure there are other reasons why as I heard many good things about back and front squats over the years and that many sprinters and Olympic weightlifters use it as a staple strength building exercise for their sport. I'm not the best person to ask why, I'm sure someone with a lot more experience with these should give a better explanation.

High bar back squats/olympic squats are more of a quads, glute max and thoracic erector spinae dominant exercise. The power lifting squat where you sit back becomes more of a hamstring, glute max and low back exercise.

The lunge has a lot more gluteus medius, maximus and hamstring activation. You can also activate more of the lower glute max by leaning the trunk forward. The great thing about a lunge is that you need very good hip stability and control of the limbo-pelvic region to lunge well, which transfers well for preventing injury.

There are many people who can squat bodyweight to double body weight that function quite poorly in day to day activity. I have never treated anyone with with back or hip pain that that can lunge well with their own weight let alone with their bodyweight on their back.

When you can lunge with body weight and can complete all the iM's your legs, hip and low back will be ready for anything.

It also sounds like the movement series will cover explosive leg movements.

- Without exception, my athletes have always out jumped every olympic lifter (as well as 99.9% of everyone else) who has attended a GB seminar over the years.

The only exceptions (two to date out of hundreds) were two young men who combined GB and OL.

- Unless you have also mastered the various iM for the legs, your leg strength and preparation are sub par and an accident waiting to happen; regardless of whether you already have a SLS or how much you can squat.

- IMO for most adults with a sedentary lifestyle (e.g. sitting at a desk), the weighted lunges are a far more effective exercise for reactivating the glutes than squats. Inactive glutes (often perceived as lower back pain) can be a significant issue even in otherwise well trained athletic individuals.

- Regardless, the requirement of a +bodyweight lunge is a moderate strength challenge at best and easily incorporated into other weighted leg work of your choice.

Note that if you are finding it strenuous rather than moderate, your leg strength is clearly not as advanced as you had presupposed.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

- IMO for most adults with a sedentary lifestyle (e.g. sitting at a desk), the weighted lunges are a far more effective exercise for reactivating the glutes than squats. Inactive glutes (often perceived as lower back pain) can be a significant issue even in otherwise well trained athletic individuals.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I don't do standard desk patrol but inactive glutes were giving me trouble. Foundation 2 IMs fixed this in short order; although I'm not a stranger to the exercises i guess i hadnt been performing them quite right. The difference is massive and might be the most profound single change from following Foundation work. Just about everything physical improved several degrees in about two weeks when my hips and glutes started doing what they were supposed to. Analogous in all around improvement to having my traps learn to fire correctly from H1 work.

I can't help but think of that anecdote from Dan John you like to quote, Coach, regarding his throwing and reducing his squats in training for a superior result. I have also heard of a 2* bw squat as a standard basic in Chinese gymnastics training.

In your opinion is there a place for heavy squatting (or other weighted leg work with a max str focus) in GST, or are the lunges sufficient to cue making the priority dynamic str development?

The variation in the approaches to high-level leg strength training in GST is huge.  And by high level, I am referring to those who participate at the Olympic Level; not 'Billy Joe' from down the street.  As you may have guessed, I have absolutely no interest in what the latest self designated internet guru has to say.

 

- I know of no one at the Olympic Level who pursued ATG past double bodyweight.  And only the Chinese have pursued the double bodyweight full squat.

 

- Some of the Russians not only did no weighted leg work, they even went as far as to forbid bicycling for the fear of possible leg hypertrophy.

 

- Other Russians went absolutely as heavy as possible; but only in the 1/4 squat range.  I think that this may have merit in combination with the heavy weighted lunges.  Hang olympic lifting variations would also fit well here or as well as heavy rack pulls.

 

Interestingly, both of the Russian approaches have resulted in Olympic Champions.

 

Remember however that for most of you this conversation is moot until you attend to your fundamental leg strength (iM, SLS and weighted lunges).

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I like lunges!/split squats.

Can't fudge full range...I see all these guys at the gym back squaring stupid weight to 1/8th range...give them 60kg and they couldn't front squat it 90degrees...let alone ass to grass.

Some other benefits:

1) More loading on the leg with lower loadings on low back. Why wreck an althlete trying to get 2xbw squat when a 1-1.5bw split squat(lunge) will accomplish the same thing at lower low back risk and lower CNS demand.

2) Easier to ensure muscular balance between limbs and correct the imbalance.

3) more functional in terms of deceleration control and knee tracking.

4) helps correct quad glute activation/dominance balance in movement

Best variations in my opinion, you planter flex the rear foot and rest it on a raised bench behind you.

Can modify position/pull for shifting focus...such as single leg ubar or dumbbell deadlifts or lower weight and combine overhead press with forward deceleration and decent.

Coach Sommer said:

The variation in the approaches to high-level leg strength training in GST is huge. And by high level, I am referring to those who participate at the Olympic Level; not 'Billy Joe' from down the street. As you may have guessed, I have absolutely no interest in what the latest self designated internet guru has to say.

- I know of no one at the Olympic Level who pursued ATG past double bodyweight. And only the Chinese have pursued the double bodyweight full squat.

- Some of the Russians not only did no weighted leg work, they even went as far as to forbid bicycling for the fear of possible leg hypertrophy.

- Other Russians went absolutely as heavy as possible; but only in the 1/4 squat range. I think that this may have merit in combination with the heavy weighted lunges. Hang olympic lifting variations would also fit well here or as well as heavy rack pulls.

Interestingly, both of the Russian approaches have resulted in Olympic Champions.

Remember however that for most of you this conversation is moot until you attend to your fundamental leg strength (iM, SLS and weighted lunges).

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thank you very much, that's extremely interesting. I have also heard from a Russian-trained circus contortionist that he was forbidden cycling due to an adverse effect on flexibility (repetitive limited ROM), although whether that rule was grounded in fact I do not know.

Years ago, I once had Allan working jumping bulgarian split squats with only the front leg jumping off the ground, the rear foot up on a bench and using dumbbells for resistance.  

 

These are very potent and we had to be quite careful with them; Allan quite convincingly conveyed to me that they were going to pull the hamstrings right off his legs if I worked him too hard.   

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer,

What do you think about deadlifts, single leg deadlifts, and their other variations?

I might be allowing my imagination to get waaay ahead of the game, but I can't help but ask;

Coach, your posts lead to the question of people moving through Foundation work etc, and without the pressures of technical training and peaking for competition, having more time/ capacity to pursue pure GST.

It seems to me that many of them would be quite happy to guinea pig ideas like you describe above,. While Im not likely to have the sort of gifts to push the boundaries like that myself, there are a lot of talented people out there who never entered gymnastics, for whatever reason, and thanks to this forum there are now thousands more people working towards high level GST.

I know it's early days yet, but what are your thoughts on this? Any plans to release/publish some of your experiments (successful or not) over the years? Or is it more a case for you of turning it loose and allowing people to make their own way?

Love deadlifts. However we have only ever used them as a part of our warmup; and never for max strength development per se. Most people abuse deadlifts by attempting max pulls far too often. My students had to beg to add weight. I generally had them continue using the same weight for at least four weeks, preferably six to eight before I would even consider adding more weight.

I recently re-instituted these with Heath. At a bodyweight of 110lbs he began with 135lbs following Allan's protocol outlined below. After approx 10 weeks Heath increased the weight of his warmup deadlifts to 185lbs in a single jump which he was surprised to find quite comfortable.

When Allan was young he did deadlifts (building up to bdywt and 1.5 bdywt) everyday as a part of his warmup. He did these SSC style with no warmup. One set of three, then shoulder mobility work (approx 5 min worth) then a second set of three before heading on to more advanced shoulder mobility.

He was however young at the time, so with the height of the bumper plates on the bar it was closer to a rack pull for him than a true deadlift.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Always happy to experiment on others for the common good.

Currently I am particularly interested in examining the potential of the hang clean (not full clean, not power clean, not split clean) for upper back development as upper back development is a huge factor in advanced ring strength (maltese anyone?!?) and press handstand strength.

It is important to remember that these types of discussions can be dangerous to your training focus. Especially for beginners; which all of you still are. At this point in all of your development establishing your base of foundational strength is of primary importance. Quality, patient work now will result in much faster progress later.

Once you guys master Foundation we can move forward and start having some fun exploring new territory.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer