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Started by Badi, September 25, 2013 · 225 Replies · 11,493 Views
The compression strength required to do even a correct negative HLL is far greater than that required to do a straddle up.
I don't know. Strength maybe but mobility is what really is holding us back. I can do multiple HLL but zero Straddle - Up past 85-90 degrees.
Would be good to get an official answer to this.
Do we need the compression demonstrated in the video? If yes, then what are people supposed to do if they are making slow progress (6+ months) just carry on with the IM?
It does seem at odds that the PE requires significant pancake but the IM is a pike stretch. I start this next week and don't want to spin my wheels.
I don't mean to be rude but I think coaches silence on this is because we do have an answer. The videos are our guide.
howens said:I don't mean to be rude but I think coaches silence on this is because we do have an answer. The videos are our guide.
Agree. And I think we (as a community) should to train more and talk less.
It really shouldn't take 6 months to achieve what is shown in the video, if you're getting plenty of food and good rest then your core is going to be pretty strong and able to compress from all the work you've done in the other exercises. Limitations are therefore going to come from lack of flexibility. Stiff leg windmills and MN/PE2-im should sort this. I imagine most people are just not pushing themselves in the im.
I've been on this element for about two weeks and I'm seeing good progress, I'm not very flexible in the hips and I can now sit in the straddle position with my back straight and bending 90o at the hips. the associated im really helps I've found it works especially well if you really focus on rolling your head down your body keeping it as close as you can to your body, feel uncomfortable at first and hurts a little but really helps with compression and flexibility I find.
Or maybe they are shooting a new video as we speak 
RF_Guy said:Or maybe they are shooting a new video as we speak
With even more compression and done slower, just to rub it in :-)
RF_Guy said:The compression strength required to do even a correct negative HLL is far greater than that required to do a straddle up.
I don't know. Strength maybe but mobility is what really is holding us back. I can do multiple HLL but zero Straddle - Up past 85-90 degrees.
Mobility too. You need to be way past 90 degrees of compression to do a toes to bar HLL with straight arms and locked knees on stall bars. Shins to bar, sure you can use your lats more to raise your hips higher and thus decrease the mobility requirements, but that's not the goal.
Murray Truelove said:Would be good to get an official answer to this.
Do we need the compression demonstrated in the video? If yes, then what are people supposed to do if they are making slow progress (6+ months) just carry on with the IM?
It does seem at odds that the PE requires significant pancake but the IM is a pike stretch. I start this next week and don't want to spin my wheels.
My initial thoughts when looking through the course (which I still think hold true) is that the Windmills are supposed to get you to the mobility required to do the straddle-ups and the Jefferson Curls are supposed to get you to be able to do V-ups. So essentially you are working on the mobility for the next movement, not the one you are on.
If you can do the Windmills like the athlete in the video does them then you should have enough passive flexibility to do a decent pancake. Maybe people are having so much trouble because they didn't really master the first iM. Or maybe it really is just a matter of it taking longer for them to build up the strength required to do the straddle-ups than they'd like. Just thinking out loud.
But I tend to agree with whoever said that Coach's silence on the subject is probably a subtle way of telling us to quit whining and get to work on mastering the Straddle-up to the standard shown in the video.
Mobility too. You need to be way past 90 degrees of compression to do a toes to bar HLL with straight arms and locked knees on stall bars.
I thought pike would be much more important for HLL. I should have added that I have good pike flexibility, bar much lower than toes in IM2. And I tried both overgrip and Undergrip HLL versions to exclude lats with locked knees of course.
I think for a person who has full pancake PE2 would be easier than HLL and a logical step on the way to HLL, but for someone who has 90 deg pancake it would be the opposite.
RF_Guy said:Mobility too. You need to be way past 90 degrees of compression to do a toes to bar HLL with straight arms and locked knees on stall bars.
I thought pike would be much more important for HLL. I should have added that I have good pike flexibility, bar much lower than toes in IM2. And I tried both overgrip and Undergrip HLL versions to exclude lats with locked knees of course.
I think for a person who has full pancake PE2 would be easier than HLL and a logical step on the way to HLL, but for someone who has 90 deg pancake it would be the opposite.
If we are talking about a passive pancake and not an active pancake, then I don't think you could perform mastery of MN PE1>iM with only a 90 degree pancake. The athlete in the video is flexing at the hips/spine much more than 90 degrees in the demo video.
Hmmm, I was referring to active pancake. But I see what you are saying, somehow I am much more stiff in sitting position than in standing not sure why. I will try to take a video to compare.
howens said:I don't mean to be rude but I think coaches silence on this is because we do have an answer. The videos are our guide.
Sorry, but I find this to be an inherently ridiculous statement.
A response is a response, silence is silence. If at some point between coaching the national team, his own students, the seminars and his family, Coach wants to take the time to comment on my observations on manna programming, I'll happily listen to what he has to say. That's why I go to seminars, so I can have direct, critical feedback.
You're reducing him from an knowledgeable, articulate teacher, to a boogeyman who lies in the shadows waiting to get you if you don't do your straddle ups.
I personally haven't made a call for an 'official response', at the same time I don't I think it's entirely unreasonable to ask for clarification on something you find to be unclear.
spinelli said:Stiff leg windmills and MN/PE2-im should sort this. I imagine most people are just not pushing themselves in the im.
Nonsense, I'm working full ROM j-curls at over half my body weight. All the mobility in manna is geared towards developing the pike, which they do wonderfully.
spinelli said:I've found it works especially well if you really focus on rolling your head down your body keeping it as close as you can to your body, feel uncomfortable at first and hurts a little but really helps with compression and flexibility I find.
Your head certainly gets closer to the floor if you round your back as much as possible, but it really wont alter your actual compression in the hips. It looks like it's a common problem with people working straddle ups. But like the focus points say, keep your chest as high as possible without collapsing.
To faithfully reproduce the ROM in the video you need to be able to bring the tops of your thighs past the front of your body with a straight back. If you can demonstrate doing that with just windmills, I'll listen.
I checked my form in IM1, it is fine.
This thread does not seem to go anywhere. As I see it there are two problems:
1. Huge gap between mastery of PE1 and one Rep of PE2
2. PE2 mastery is needed later for HLL.
The fact that problem #2 exists (which I am not convinced) does not mean problem #1 should not be addressed. Right now we are on our own to close this gap without any official instructions how. Endless practice does not seem to be helpful.
Well it is pretty clear to me what I should do especially with IM2 at the mastery level. Let's see how it all works out.
thecolin said:Sorry, but I find this to be an inherently ridiculous statement.
A response is a response, silence is silence. If at some point between coaching the national team, his own students, the seminars and his family, Coach wants to take the time to comment on my observations on manna programming, I'll happily listen to what he has to say. That's why I go to seminars, so I can have direct, critical feedback.
You're reducing him from an knowledgeable, articulate teacher, to a boogeyman who lies in the shadows waiting to get you if you don't do your straddle ups.
I personally haven't made a call for an 'official response', at the same time I don't I think it's entirely unreasonable to ask for clarification on something you find to be unclear.
Nonsense, I'm working full ROM j-curls at over half my body weight. All the mobility in manna is geared towards developing the pike, which they do wonderfully.
Your head certainly gets closer to the floor if you round your back as much as possible, but it really wont alter your actual compression in the hips. It looks like it's a common problem with people working straddle ups. But like the focus points say, keep your chest as high as possible without collapsing.
To faithfully reproduce the ROM in the video you need to be able to bring the tops of your thighs past the front of your body with a straight back. If you can demonstrate doing that with just windmills, I'll listen.
To my eye if you pause the PE2 video at the top of the compression it looks pretty much exactly like the bottom of the windmills (minus the rotation of course) in terms of compression.
As Coach has stated before though, passive flexibility does not ensure active flexibility. Active flexibility is about strength building and must be trained for specifically.
I think the windmills are supposed to build our body's ability to move into enough of a pancake position for PE2, but our work in PE2 is designed to build the strength to access that ROM actively.
thecolin said:Sorry, but I find this to be an inherently ridiculous statement.
I disagree. People asking for an official statement on this issue are ignoring the fact that Coach has provided an official statement. I can't find the exact quote but remember he's told us that we have to copy both the form and the tempo demonstrated in the video.
I find it confusing that so many people are asking 'do we have to copy the form shown in the video' when it explicitly states so in the course materials....
Yes, it sucks. But so does ABH....
- When in doubt, perform the exercises and iM exactly as performed in the videos and photos. If you are still in doubt, film yourself and compare the two. If you are still in doubt, post your video(s) here for analysis for the other forum members and moderators. If the doubt continues, then you may want to consider enrolling in our OLC program.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Even when coach says something, people still continue to argue about it. This has happened in multiple threads now, the ABH thread included. At this point in our MN/PE2 discussion, we're just waiting for the science freaks to get to this thread and write up their 1000 word arguments on gracilis impingment hypermobile fascial limitations and adductor sarcomere acetylcholinesterase ice treatment.
The time you spent here is time you could have spent practicing straddle lifts and lowering into pancakes. When I was stuck on HSPE4 for months on end, I spent basically every waking moment that I wasn't working doing stretches and mobility and greasing the groove and myofascial release and massage and changing my daily habits and partner stretching and videotaping. if you want something very difficult, you need to be awfully obsessive and learn to suck it up. The compression shown in the video is indeed possible and not far off if you just be proactive.
Biren P. said:waiting for the science freaks to get to this thread and write up their 1000 word arguments on gracilis impingment hypermobile fascial limitations and adductor sarcomere acetylcholinesterase ice treatment.
Biren P. said:The time you spent here is time you could have spent practicing straddle lifts and lowering into pancakes
Lol, this got me off my arse, and onto the floor doing pancake. Thanks!
Biren P. said:Even when coach says something, people still continue to argue about it. This has happened in multiple threads now, the ABH thread included. At this point in our MN/PE2 discussion, we're just waiting for the science freaks to get to this thread and write up their 1000 word arguments on gracilis impingment hypermobile fascial limitations and adductor sarcomere acetylcholinesterase ice treatment.
The time you spent here is time you could have spent practicing straddle lifts and lowering into pancakes. When I was stuck on HSPE4 for months on end, I spent basically every waking moment that I wasn't working doing stretches and mobility and greasing the groove and myofascial release and massage and changing my daily habits and partner stretching and videotaping. if you want something very difficult, you need to be awfully obsessive and learn to suck it up. The compression shown in the video is indeed possible and not far off if you just be proactive.
If you'll kindly stop beating that straw man you've so lovingly constructed, could you tell me if you've actually read the points I've raised? From your response you clearly haven't. Yes extreme effort is required, yes a pancake is possible, blah blah blah... that's not even slightly relevant to what I've been saying. If you want to respond to anything I've actually written, I'm happy to discuss the finer points with you.
I believe Coach stated at one point a while ago that a single session of ART therapy was more productive than months of traditional work. The woman in the fascial release video which I assume you're referring to went from a decent pancake to chest on the floor with a minute of physical manipulation. If you're honestly telling me that it's better spend every second of your life working on something that might be accomplished literally instantly, go nuts. Dedication is one thing, but that sounds really insane to me.
Obviously there isn't a magical fix for everything, the larger points you raised are still the most relevant ones in a grander context. But you're oversimplifying a complicated issue with easy one-liners and an abundance of machismo. Things in life aren't always straight forward, they may even get a bit sciencey from time to time. 
Topic was...
Has anyone mastered MN/PE2 yet?
does not seem to go anywhere in this discussion, hm?
How about you get as close to the video as you can and if you don't have the same compression but you feel you are close enough then you move on while keeping a warm up set trying to improve and see if you get stuck somewhere down the line because of it. Could be a good experiment for you.
I personally will be working my pancake active flexibility as much as possible while I work my way to mastery even if I have to spend 6 months on it. Honestly though if it takes you more time than that I think taking a good look at how you are going about your training would be a good idea because you are probably doing something wrong.
thecolin said:If you'll kindly stop beating that straw man you've so lovingly constructed, could you tell me if you've actually read the points I've raised? From your response you clearly haven't. Yes extreme effort is required, yes a pancake is possible, blah blah blah... that's not even slightly relevant to what I've been saying. If you want to respond to anything I've actually written, I'm happy to discuss the finer points with you.
I believe Coach stated at one point a while ago that a single session of ART therapy was more productive than months of traditional work. The woman in the fascial release video which I assume you're referring to went from a decent pancake to chest on the floor with a minute of physical manipulation. If you're honestly telling me that it's better spend every second of your life working on something that might be accomplished literally instantly, go nuts. Dedication is one thing, but that sounds really insane to me.
Obviously there isn't a magical fix for everything, the larger points you raised are still the most relevant ones in a grander context. But you're oversimplifying a complicated issue with easy one-liners and an abundance of machismo. Things in life aren't always straight forward, they may even get a bit sciencey from time to time.
I think you are somewhat exaggerating the demands that PE2 places on us as beginning GST trainees though,
You do NOT need perfect pancake flexibility to correctly perform Straddle-Ups, not even close.
The athlete in the video's hips don't go beyond an approximate 85-90 degrees of hip flexion; the rest of the compression is performed via Lumbar Spinal flexion. His degree of hip Abduction also doesn't look anywhere close to 180 degrees.
A perfect pancake on the other hand would require close to 180 degrees of hip Abduction and for one to maintain their APT (or at least natural spinal curve) while flexing far enough forwards from the hips to place their legs and torso in essentially a zero angle/in the same line (or in application to lay completely flat on their stomach with the legs completely out to the sides and toes pointing to the ceiling/hips externally rotated).
If that was the requirement to do PE2, then I would agree that it would be an unreasonable standard, but it 's not, and neither is the standard demonstrated in the demo video.
Keegan said:I think you are somewhat exaggerating the demands that PE2 places on us as beginning GST trainees though,
You do NOT need perfect pancake flexibility to correctly perform Straddle-Ups, not even close.
The athlete in the video's hips don't go beyond an approximate 85-90 degrees of hip flexion
I certainly hope it's an exaggeration, that would certainly be a relief. 
If you go back to page 7 of this thread, somebody took the time to look at how much compression is demonstrated. It's definitely way less than 90 degrees. If you sit with you legs on the ground and your back perpendicular to the ground, that's 90 degrees. Is that really what you see in the video? Though I think talking about 'degrees of compression' is a pretty odd and subjective standard.
According to the video, your thighs should pass the front of your lower body by a good margin. That's a far more easily identifiable standard.
Though as I've said all along, the problem isn't the standard. It's simply that the course doesn't supply the tools for the acquisition of that ROM at the start of manna. Those tools come along later, so one can only logically assume that is the point when straddle compression should be focused on. Otherwise those later mobility elements would become redundant.