Has anyone mastered MN/PE2 yet?

Bipocni said:

I don't think Coach was planning to release a stretch series originally...

Let me clarify a bit, because based on the responses, it appears I haven't been.

I agree with Colin, in that it would be very useful to get an official answer as to the amount of compression required. Maybe one of the staff could comment? To make my question a bit clearer, do we need this amount of compression (as displayed in the video):

or only this much (as shown in the course photos):

or somewhere in between?

My current passive compression is 90 degrees, whilst my active is more like 100. It would be good to know how much further I have to go and what I need to focus on.

Kibbokift, let me take a stab at addressing your concerns by asking the following question:

Mastery in HBP/PE2 implies doing 5x15 repetitions with perfect form.

Now, could we rhetorically insist that mastery could also mean doing 5x10 with perfect form, given that many of us are not an "experienced gymnast" and doing HBP/PE2 5x15 might mean spending 12 months doing endless pushups?

I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but we have to know that there is a reason why that compression is required.

Shifting goalposts has never been known to be an effective strategy for getting things done.

I just began Mn/PE2 but I was concerned that it might be a little bit of a challenge, given that more than a few people seemed to be struggling with it, so I started improving my hip flexor strength and flexibility while I was still on Mn/PE1.

I could barely raise my compression past 120 degrees (using your picture) when I began strengthening hip flexors.  Now my compression is at 95 degrees (in other words, just a touch more compression than is shown in picture 2), and I'm still on Mn/PE2 Wk 1.

By the time I get to Wk3 or 4 I believe my compression might be at 85 degrees.

We just have to figure out what our weak links are and get going and doing what needs to be done to correct them.

If that means doing stretches or exercises that are going to be required much later in the progressions, then so be it.

I just posted my attempt along with ABH here

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/14907-my-mnpe2-and-slpe1-progress-please-comment-on-form/

~Atticus said:

Kibbokift, let me take a stab at addressing your concerns by asking the following question:

 

Thanks for your imput, but I think your logic is faulty on several points.

First off, endurance and flexibility are two completely separate issues. This is complete hyperbole on your part. Endurance requires determination and consistency and not much else. Mobility requires specific techniques to produce results. You obviously have no such issues, and just need to add some strength through ROM that you already have, that's great.

This is not about "shifting goal posts". The goal remains the same, the question is at what point should we be right now in our work towards a goal of a full pancake. This comment makes no sense, please re-read my post. At this point in the program, there is no mobility element that can help the average person towards that goal as a second step in the progression.

Saying "I can do it, why can't everyone else?" is not a valid argument. What you essentially seem to be saying is "suck it up and do it", which is an easy statement when you're breezing through an element. While this approach may work for gifted yet lazy individuals, for people with other issues it's a completely pointless statement. This is a program we're trying to learn from, which requires exposition and teaching. And my point is that the program does teach us, we're just trying to do to much to soon.

And as I stated above, the programming as presented does not support your view, plain and simple.

~Atticus said:

 

Now, could we rhetorically insist that mastery could also mean doing 5x10 with perfect form, given that many of us are not an "experienced gymnast" and doing HBP/PE2 5x15 might mean spending 12 months doing endless pushups?

 

An additional point regarding endurance. These elements are scaled down for this program compared to what Coach's student's normally do. The highest number I heard him talk about for push-ups from his students was around 350, strict form in a single set.

But it's easy to scale down those elements for adult practitioners. I doubt however that when filming straddle ups he would say to his student 'Show me a set of straddle ups, but do them worse than you normally do, like a 30-40 year old with three months of gymnastics experience'. 

KibboKift said:

I agree with Colin, in that it would be very useful to get an official answer as to the amount of compression required. Maybe one of the staff could comment? To make my question a bit clearer, do we need this amount of compression (as displayed in the video):

Hip Angle - More Compression.PNG

 

or only this much (as shown in the course photos):

Hip Angle - Less Compression.PNG

 

or somewhere in between?

 

My current passive compression is 90 degrees, whilst my active is more like 100. It would be good to know how much further I have to go and what I need to focus on.

Wish Coach would weigh in on this question.  Would save me a lot of time if I knew I didn't need full compression/pancake before moving on to PE3...

My take is that you need the compression as demonstrated by the video - hence yes you do need a near pancake and yes you'll have to work for longer on any lack of flexibility which in turn means you'll move more slowly through the PEs. It's not a race, it's a long term perfecting of the body for the job in hand.

A manna is a manna regardless of whether it is being performed by a youngster or an adult. 

Personally my MN PEs have improved from putting in the extra compression and active stretching drills. They are like side servings to the main F1 course. Other people may need more or less side servings depending on the state of their body at the start of F1.

I have mentioned it in another thread but PE2 with compression angle demonstrated in demo video does not seem to prepare us for any of more advanced PE in MN progression . You can try it yourself as I did this morning. I had no problem to do few reps of any up to PE9, and yet my compression in PE2 is about 90 degrees. It makes very little sense to spend many months trying to achieve 60 degrees as it will not be needed for another year or however much time it might take to finally get to Straddle work somewhere in F2. I really hope Coach can clarify this issue. If it is required however then maybe additional PE in between might be needed as it just does not make much sense that mastery of PE1 did not prepare us to do even one full ROM rep of PE2. With 5x15 mastery requirement it is absolutely huge gap between mastery of PE1 and one measly Rep of PE2.

LateStarter@46 said:

My take is that you need the compression as demonstrated by the video - hence yes you do need a near pancake and yes you'll have to work for longer on any lack of flexibility which in turn means you'll move more slowly through the PEs. It's not a race, it's a long term perfecting of the body for the job in hand.

Of course you need the compression demonstrated in the video, I don't think anyone is questioning that. But there doesn't seem to be a reason to do it at the very beginning of the program. It would be like saying you need perfect shoulder mobility before starting H1.

I don't see why you'd progress more slowly with the other PEs. The only one that involves straddle compression is PE-2, after that it's all pike compression up to at least Foundation 3 (which I haven't bought yet, so I don't know what's there). And they are all tied to pike compression mobility, and mine is fine... because I've been doing the assigned mobility which addresses pike mobility exclusively.

Of course you should work your pancake stretch on the side, but it seems clear that it's presented as a long term goal.

I have mastered exercises and when I later retested the earlier exercise my form was 2-3 times better. This has happened with BHBR. I just mastered the Straddle Rock. Now the BHBR is so much better as I have progressed. Maybe I needed to spend longer on the BHBR. I expect that the earlier exercises will continue to improve as time goes on.

I think this program is designed in a way that if we have not achieved a satisfactory level we will get stuck on later exercise. Maybe one day I will get my PPP and when I attempt certification I will fail the straddle up and have to go back. I will be using the certification as a way to ultimately test if I have mastered an exercise. That way I will not get too far ahead. I would hate to finish F4 and then decide to get certified and be told to go back and master the Straddle up!

thecolin said:

Of course you need the compression demonstrated in the video, I don't think anyone is questioning that.

In fact this was exactly what I was questioning. Several others have expressed doubts too. If you look back through this thread you will find:

- A video (7), kindly posted by Daniel Burnham where he demonstrates the exercise with around 90 degrees of compression.

- Another post (31) by Daniel where he says we should strive to emulate the video exactly.

-  A post (44) by NoHiddenCosts which highlights the fact that the accompanying photos, which normally show the full ROM required, seem to contradict the video

-  A post (62) by Bipocni that draws attention to the photos of the same exercise in BtGB, in which a lesser ROM is shown.

-  A post (124) by Jon Bishop where he suggests you probably don’t need as much ROM as shown in the video.

Before reading this thread I would have followed the strict attitude towards mastery that I have with other elements, ie emulate the ROM of the athlete in the course video exactly. Now however - with this specific element only - I am less sure. While I certainly agree with Mark's point that moving on prematurely is likely to cause problems down the line, Colin's argument that a good active straddle pike is not needed until much later in the course is also valid.

Until a definitive answer is given, I will continue to work towards compression of 75 degrees - as shown in the video - with the tools I have available. These are:

- Windmills and JC's for hamstring mobility

- Windmills, cossack squats and straddle running man for adductor mobility

- Supine straddle leg lifts from the floor for hip flexor strength, then

- Supine straddle leg lifts off the wall, then

- Seated straddle leg lifts (back against the wall)

For the record, I think that this talk of pancakes is a bit over the top. As far as I can tell from pictures, to achieve a decent pancake you need a much greater degree of compression. Perhaps 45 degrees or lower. 75 degrees (video ROM) is a lot more achievable - it equates to pulling your legs off the wall by 15 - 20 cm in a supine straddle. Some hard work to do, yes, but not out of the question.

KibboKift said:

In fact this was exactly what I was questioning. Several others have expressed doubts too.

I don't know exactly how much is optimum, or if there's such a thing as too much. I guess it would be more accurate to say that I'm going to keep working on it and getting it as good as I can. But at this point I'm not going to get hung up for months without a clear plan of attack on a progression where it's clearly not called for.

Here's the thing: we're working towards a manna.  That's going to require a hell of a lot more compression than a straddle up....

Now I'm paraphrasing here, but I've heard over and over again that stronger people simply aren't as flexible.  It's something to do with how the muscles can pull harder, and fight the stretch more, than weaker people.  I'm sure someone with more experience can clarify this statement.

But the point is if we don't build up the required flexibility now, it's going to be even harder later.

But I agree we may need some more materials to guide us than F1 provides.  There's an upcoming stretch series, there's the pancake mobility that is the focus of H2, there's a whole internet out there if you just search it.....

And before anyone complains that this stuff should really have been included in F1, remember that all of these programs are supposed to be worked together.  Anyone think they won't need a pancake to achieve a manna?  Anyone think they won't need a handstand in order to do a hollowback press?

Bipocni said:

 there's a whole internet out there if you just search it.....

Agreed, but mostly, there's this. Seriously guys, do this thing, the gains are awesome. You'd still need to gain the compression but this is a very good start.

This is an interesting discussion. I've been aiming to achieve the same ROM and form that the athletes demonstrate on the videos, but have been making very very slow progress at Mn/PE2, SL/PE1, and HS/PE1>iM.

I haven't really been bothered by this and just chalked it up to a body that has been poorly maintained and will require time to fix as my  philosophy had always previously been "why stretch when you can use that time to train more". My only concern now has to do with the comments that we should be completing the F series within 2 years. It's been 12 months of consistent and dedicated work for me, and I'm nowhere near completing F, let alone F1. I'm therefore starting to wonder if I'm doing something wrong, or if that comment just didn't apply to the subgroup of people with piss-poor mobility.

From what I understand is the program starts to snowball somewhat, so although you spend a year on f1 it may only take half. Year for f2 for example. ( those were completely random time frames to illustrate my point).

I know as soon as I complete hbp pe3 which will still be some time still, ill be able to master at the very least the next several progressions and won't need to spend months on them. As you progress your body becomes more limber has better neural connections and is stronger. A lot of exercises are similar so if you master a previous progression and it takes 3 months then the next may either be mastered or take less time.

It varies a lot from person to person though coach mentioned in an older post that the whole course should take the average person 5-7 years, this is including rings and everything else. Some may do it faster some may move slower though.

Either way you are getting stronger and looking sexier as you go along so if it takes 2 years or 4 years for foundation does it really matter? By the time you hit f2-f3 you will be more bad ass then most people you meet.

Bipocni said:

And before anyone complains that this stuff should really have been included in F1, remember that all of these programs are supposed to be worked together.

I'm not complaining, it's clear that it was placed later for a reason, otherwise it would be in F1. I don't think Coach planned for people to be working on manna PE-2 and H2 at the same time. And if the plan was to master the pancake for PE-2, then there wouldn't be any pancake mobility in H2 because we would have all a perfect pancake by then, logic! 

I'll keep working hard on my flexibility, and when I come to the part of the program with intensive pancake mobility, I'll work just as hard on that. Anyone who doesn't work hard on all areas of their flexibility regardless of specific requirements is obviously going to miss out in the long term.

People,

I think you are definitely overthinking this thing.  First off, it's been made clear that the expectations for mobility are what's demonstrated in the video.  However, there's no reason in my mind, except maybe in extreme cases of weakness and immobility, why you should be stuck on this element for a year.  I'm quite certain that by the time you've been doing one exercise for 6 months or more, you are not going to get anything else out of it.  If you're able to do it well, and just not quite to the standard, I would suggest you move on.  By all means keep working the limiting reagent, whether it's compression or mobility, but time to mix it up a bit, and give your body a new stimulus.  My guess is you might plateau at a later point, but then you'll be more prepared to make further progress.  Keep working supplemental stuff to fix your weak points.  I don't suggest this as a standard approach, but at some point, doing the same exercise over and over (for 6+ months!), you're wasting your time.  This only leads to frustration and poor progress, then you might quit and where does that leave you.  The best approach would be to post form checks and we can help you through it. But if you've done this, your form is good, but you can't get to the appropriate standard, move on for a few PE's, then try to come back to it and I think you'll see you've made progress because of different neurologic stimulation and working similar actions/muscles in a different way.

MT Nordic said:

.....I'm quite certain that by the time you've been doing one exercise for 6 months or more, you are not going to get anything else out of it......

I had this exact same moment of insight with RC/PE1.  I was stuck on it for ages, so I decided to move ahead for a while.  I've since seen more growth in my back in the last month than I have in the entire 7 months before that I was doing Foundation.

MT Nordic said:

I don't suggest this as a standard approach, but at some point, doing the same exercise over and over (for 6+ months!), you're wasting your time.

I think we're essentially saying the same thing in every functional sense. Work towards the form in the video in every way possible, but don't spend two years hitting you head against a brick wall.

word! after a few months fighting with the same element, its more a mental fight, don't forget to have fun doing sports, this is important, to my mind, not just the training aspect!

William said:

don't forget to have fun doing sports

I think it's important that training is rewarding. But there are going to be points in the program where a certain ROM must be achieved. My argument in this case is simply that there is no objective reason to develop a full pancake at the very beginning of the program.

thecolin said:

I think it's important that training is rewarding. But there are going to be points in the program where a certain ROM must be achieved. My argument in this case is simply that there is no objective reason to develop a full pancake at the very beginning of the program.

Isn't there though?

As someone said, the first 3 PE's are developing compression strength from a fairly (at least compared to later MN progressions) easy leverage/resistance level. First with the legs bent, then with them straight but straddled (which shortens the lever arm), and finally with the legs straight and together.

Then you go on to stall bar HLL variations which decrease the leverage and require greater compression strength. First with the legs bent, then with the legs straight but only doing the first half of the ROM, then negatives and so on.

The compression strength required to do even a correct negative HLL is far greater than that required to do a straddle up. Yes I agree that there is no Adductor mobility required to do a negative HLL, but I really don't see any other logical progression between tuck-ups and V-ups.

I also think the Stiff Legged Windmills are supposed to get you to the mobility required to go the straddle-ups correctly, but I might be wrong about that.

Keegan said:

I also think the Stiff Legged Windmills are supposed to get you to the mobility required to go the straddle-ups correctly, but I might be wrong about that.

I recently noticed in the demonstration video that his head was reaching his knees.  And before this I'd only done them to parallel...