Shoulder pain with muscle ups and front levers

[Jordan Garcia]

One day I was doing muscle ups after i did my usual routine which does have muscle ups in it and my shoulder just started hurting I thought it was nothing so I kept doing them but after I was finished doing them my shoulder hurt so bad I couldn't even do pull-ups for the rest of the day. The point where it hurts is the origin of the long head of the triceps I am also unable to do front levers now because my shoulder hurts when I do that too. Please help I am great full for any replies. P.S. doctor visit not an option

[Joshua Naterman]

The following is for your education only, and is not a prescription or a recommendation. Anything you choose to do, based on this post or not, is at your own risk:

 

Origin is the attachment closest to the spine for most muscles, so long head of tricep origin is on the scapula itself.

 

A doctor will tell you that you may have tendonitis or you may have a small strain. The typical healing cycle starts with 4-7 days of total rest for the injured group. You may, or may not, choose to take NSAIDs. This represents the first goal of rehab: to control and eliminate excess inflammation.

 

The only exercise recommended is pain-free range of motion work during this time.

 

The second goal of rehab is to regain full, pre-injury levels of pain-free ROM with no unnecessary external resistance. There is no specific timeline for this, but it often takes ~2 weeks. It CAN take much longer.

 

The third goal of rehab is to rebuild pre-injury levels of pain-free full-ROM strength in the affected areas.

 

The Fourth goal of rehab is to then re-introduce you to your sport, and make modifications to your training that prevent re-injury.

Each Goal represents a phase of rehab.

 

 

 

 

I will add that as soon as you have full ROM, after phase 2 is complete, you should go to a doctor and get fully evaluated for scapular dyskinesia. This is a fancy term for "your sshoulder blade, it don't quite move right!" and needs to be fixed if such issues are present. I can't tell you what you've got going on.

 

 

If you can't get to a doctor, you should progress until you legit reach phase 4, and then you should probably pick up the Foundation series. It will guide you in a way that will help you avoid future injury.

[Antonio Boyer]

I never felt any pain with front levers but one time i injured my shoulder doing muscle ups. I was trying to show off and I did like 5 slow with a false grip. its the transition that can be dangerous if you over do it. 

[AlexX]

Yeah I had something similar, although mine wasn't from exercise it was from spotting tumbling literally all day long. The next day when I went to work out I had pain in the same area you are describing from front levers and manna. But basically I got rid of it by following what Joshua posted. In short, I took 2 weeks off from anything that hurt, did extra lacrosse ball rolling on external rotators, upperback and shoulders, and added some band rotator cuff exercises. In a few weeks I was back to normal.

[Mike Chomitsch]

Turkish Get Ups, particularly with a kettlebell rather than a dumbbell, are an excellent exercise, quite possibly the best, for your rotator cuff muscles. Not having done them for a while has certainly set my shoulders back.

[AlexX]

Turkish Get Ups, particularly with a kettlebell rather than a dumbbell, are an excellent exercise, quite possibly the best, for your rotator cuff muscles. Not having done them for a while has certainly set my shoulders back.

My shoulders are pretty intolerant of overhead work so this is not a good indicator of everyone but this exercise does not nothing for me except increase chance of injury. Actually most exercises where my arms have to go overhead with a significant load are not worth it for me, handstand work being the one exception.

[Mike Chomitsch]

Hey,

 

That's interesting. The TGU will help...but first you need to take care of that pain! That's probably the best place to start - do you have pain in your shoulder? This is any pain, whether you're at rest or moving through any of the shoulders ranges of motion. It sounds like you do have an injury.

 

In Gray Cook's FMS system, pain is an automatic stop signal and must be addressed before any other work is done. This is sound advice as training through pain is pointless and counterproductive (compensation will occur elsewhere in order to continue a movement and will lead to further problems down the road.)

 

By the way, I'm just speaking generally, AlexX, not trying to be a preachy douche.

 

Anyway, my right shoulder has been sore for a while - a rotator cuff injury. I let it rest and stretched it, had regular massage and tried a few workouts here and there because it felt better, though it was not 100%.

 

Like you, I could do any overhead loaded work, even the TGU. Also like you, handstands seem to be ok. Why? I don't know...I'm not smart enough to answer that.

 

I overdid one workout and it hurt like hell! So, I finally went to a physio, who immediately did IMS (intramuscular stimulation) on it. It's been remarkable what progress I've made in only a couple of weeks.

 

Anyway, I guess the moral of my story (ok, maybe I'm a bit preachy) is to get a professional opinion. I'm glad I did. I didn't like not training but I like shoulder pain even less. Now that my shoulder is getting better, I'm going to make the TGU a regular part of my routine, though I'm going to start very light. Once you're pain free, I know the TGU will help.

 

(Gray Cook & Brett Jones' DVD - Kettlebells from the Ground Up is an excellent TGU video)

 

Hope that helps a bit more than my first post.

[Joshua Naterman]

Ah, the dry needling. It's good stuff.

 

I highly suggest seeing a good sports physio for anyone who has shoulder issues, and really get evaluated closely for  various issues (anterior tilt, insufficient upward rotation at certain points in certain movement ROMs, individual muscle strength, etc) in all the basic movement patterns you have.

 

You kind of have to ask for this, but I think you will find that therapists love to have patients who really want to fix themselves. This may help you to really learn a lot more about what is going wrong, and help your therapist develop a more specific plan of action.

 

When you go in, don't make it sound like you think you know more than them, just ask if it would be ok to evaluate certain things (overhead press, push up, horizontal row, etc) because you thought maybe you could identify hidden movement dysfunctions, and you'd feel much more comfortable with a real professional evaluating your movements after they are done with whatever initial tests they normally perform with their patients.

 

I can't speak for physios or other therapists as a group, but I know that I would like that in a patient.

[AlexX]

Hey,

 

That's interesting. The TGU will help...but first you need to take care of that pain! That's probably the best place to start - do you have pain in your shoulder? This is any pain, whether you're at rest or moving through any of the shoulders ranges of motion. It sounds like you do have an injury.

 

In Gray Cook's FMS system, pain is an automatic stop signal and must be addressed before any other work is done. This is sound advice as training through pain is pointless and counterproductive (compensation will occur elsewhere in order to continue a movement and will lead to further problems down the road.)

 

By the way, I'm just speaking generally, AlexX, not trying to be a preachy douche.

 

Anyway, my right shoulder has been sore for a while - a rotator cuff injury. I let it rest and stretched it, had regular massage and tried a few workouts here and there because it felt better, though it was not 100%.

 

Like you, I could do any overhead loaded work, even the TGU. Also like you, handstands seem to be ok. Why? I don't know...I'm not smart enough to answer that.

 

I overdid one workout and it hurt like hell! So, I finally went to a physio, who immediately did IMS (intramuscular stimulation) on it. It's been remarkable what progress I've made in only a couple of weeks.

 

Anyway, I guess the moral of my story (ok, maybe I'm a bit preachy) is to get a professional opinion. I'm glad I did. I didn't like not training but I like shoulder pain even less. Now that my shoulder is getting better, I'm going to make the TGU a regular part of my routine, though I'm going to start very light. Once you're pain free, I know the TGU will help.

 

(Gray Cook & Brett Jones' DVD - Kettlebells from the Ground Up is an excellent TGU video)

 

Hope that helps a bit more than my first post.

 

No worries , normally I would say your advice is spot on. However in my situation I've been to countless doctors (sports doctors that are considered the best in my area), physical therapists, message therapist and have tried countless things. The amount of prehab work/mobility work that I do is pretty extensive as well. What it comes down to is I have pretty crappy shoulders to begin with, type III acromiom as well as having 2 major previous injuries. Microtears on my supraspinatus on both sides, some minor cartilage damage and a partially torn labrum. My job of catching kids in mid air isn't exactly shoulder friendly either. Having said all that through consulting with qutie a few physical therapists and trying quite a few things I am able to keep this mess under no pain and even do an overhead sport with no issue.

Through experiments I've literally tried all the popular prehab exercises including the TG and that exercises just does not sit well with my shoulders as well as most other overhead movements, so I exclude it. This is why I said I am a different case and it certainly doesn't apply to everyone but the TG can cause problems for some folks who otherwise might be pain free. In all honesty there is simply no good for everyone exercise out there.

Most professional opinions in my case are either stop doing what causes pain (what I do) or get surgery (not a fan). Most likely they said I'll have to get surgery eventually anyway but I not willing to go down that road until it is a must, which is usually a complete or close to it tear.

Anyways my point was simply that there is no one size fits all exercise out there and we should all be more careful telling others that what has been a goldmine for us will be for them aswell.

[Joshua Naterman]

That's the magic of really knowing your situation... having the radiographic evidence to base good training decisions on is very important, in my opinion.

 

Glad you are managing your shoulders with so much success! I am realizing that standard shoulder stretches are not appropriate for me, at least right now. They cause rapid inflammation of my bursae on both shoulders, bad news.

[Mike Chomitsch]

Hi, AlexX

 

Those details help. I would not have recommended the TGU in that case! In the future, I'll recommend the TGU for those with normal shoulder function, i.e. pain free. That's a huge caveat!

 

That's quite a list of problems! It's great that you're able to keep pain away, AlexX.

 

Do you know why you can do handstands but not overhead work? Has any expert ever explained that to you? I know that HS and particularly 1-arm HS (can you do those?) align the shoulder properly, so perhaps that's (part of) an explanation...

[Joshua Naterman]

Hi, AlexX

 

Those details help. I would not have recommended the TGU in that case! In the future, I'll recommend the TGU for those with normal shoulder function, i.e. pain free. That's a huge caveat!

 

That's quite a list of problems! It's great that you're able to keep pain away, AlexX.

 

Do you know why you can do handstands but not overhead work? Has any expert ever explained that to you? I know that HS and particularly 1-arm HS (can you do those?) align the shoulder properly, so perhaps that's (part of) an explanation...

Subacromial space is smallest from 70-120 degrees of shoulder flexion (opening of the shoulders), which is the range that people most often feel pain in. Handstands never move you into this range, because you're in the 150-180 degree range, even in a fairly bad (by our standards) handstand.

 

That same space is where impingement happens, so there are some people who may not be able to perform that middle range of HSPU, or military press, etc. Doesn't mean they can't do handstands. Doesn't mean they can, either, but it is much more common for a handstand or fully overhead position to be comfortable, as long as that impingement zone (70-120-ish) is avoided.

[AlexX]

Subacromial space is smallest from 70-120 degrees of shoulder flexion (opening of the shoulders), which is the range that people most often feel pain in. Handstands never move you into this range, because you're in the 150-180 degree range, even in a fairly bad (by our standards) handstand.

 

That same space is where impingement happens, so there are some people who may not be able to perform that middle range of HSPU, or military press, etc. Doesn't mean they can't do handstands. Doesn't mean they can, either, but it is much more common for a handstand or fully overhead position to be comfortable, as long as that impingement zone (70-120-ish) is avoided.

 

My inability to do HSPU and military presses without discomfort would confirm this.

As a much less scienetific explanation I can tell you that holding a weight over my head (barbell) vs balancing my body in a handstand doesn't feel even remotely similar and a barbell/dumbbell is significantly more likely to cause me pain where as I really have to do something strange to injure my shoulder in a handstand. Alternatively stunting (holding a person over my head about 120 lbs.) is in between for me. Definitly less strain than a barbell or dumbells but a bit more than just a handstand.

I am not exactly sure on this as my physics knowledge is pretty limited but is there not a fairly large difference what actually does the balancing between a weight overhead and a handstand? Barbell/dumbbells I feel like it is all up to the shoulder to stabilize but in a handstand the wrists help out tremendously. Stunting feels in between to me because the weight (person) is helping you make microadjustments.

[Joshua Naterman]

Closed vs open chain dynamics is what you're experiencing

 

There is much more instability at the shoulder in an overhead dumbbell hold, which may be challenging your ability to control the shoulder blade itself, which will lead to impingement, and that will be what actually causes your pain.