Inverted Butterfly Cross Progressions?

B1214N said:

How come all Japanese Handstands I've seen are arched to some extent much like all the inverted crosses I've seen?

Because all the japanese handstands you've seen were ugly ones 

Ideally it should just be a wide-arm handstand, with the rest of the form pretty much the same. 

Note that I am not claiming to not have this problem. I have difficulty in this area in both the Japanese and regular handstands, and am actively working to correct it. 

I mean have you ever seen a completely perfect Japanese HS in person or video before? Even among elite gymnasts on youtube or TV, they always arch a bit just like all inverted crosses I have seen.

No I have not. I've seen very close though. Dong Zhen had effing phenomenal strength AND line in his positions, which is a rarity. The first Inverted Cross he does in the video I posted (on the previous page) was probably the best I've personally ever seen, and it's from a front uprise if I remember correctly. Crazy control.

Oh and I had forgotten that Maltese press to Japanese handstand was a floor skill in the FIG. Now that is a long term goal hehe. Only a D skill though, in terms of gymnastics that move is kind of like a Butterfly imo--too hard for the rating.

Yes the maltese press to Japanese should be rated like the rings counterpart to inverted cross. Also one of my long term goals too, but I don't even have a handstand yet let alone a Japanese HS which requires even more balance lol. I think a maltese on floor should be rated a D too since some people who can do a rings maltese can't do a floor maltese. I heard Gregor say that it was because the FIG wanted more acrobatic moves in FX.

Probably true. I think the Maltese being higher on rings is more a formality thing. Although I will say whenever I train it on floor it feels easier...the leverage will always be a little more advantageous on floor than rings. I don't really think Maltese-J handstand should be an E per se, although I do believe a Butterfly to considerably harder than most other ring D's.

That sort of makes sense since more stabilization is required on rings and the leverage is lower since the arms can be lowered to get leveled with the body, but it is sort of strange that some can't do it on floor. I've never tried a maltese on rings so I can't compare the two, but I've done a straddle maltese on floor and It was slightly harder than a full planche on floor which is a B, so maybe it should be a C for a full lay floor maltese after all. It was just that Gregor said something that it may be because the FIG wanted more acrobatic skills in FX which lowered the rating for this or something to that effect that made me think that it should be rated a D. 

Jslocum made a good point about this before that maybe the small difference between each other was enough to limit direct carryover between the two. Also, Vassthesupersaiyan did mention that he could generate more tension with the grip on rings than the the grip on floor which made the maltese easier for him on rings.

Hmm...now I'm interested. And yes I did hear Gregor say that he was unable to do a floor Maltese. I want to clarify that when I work floor Maltese, I use push up bars, not on my palms. Next time I'm gonna try it on my palms.

Once again though, the experience and, depending on form, musculature used, will vary from person to person. Whether or not it would be consistantly as hard as a hard Maltese on rings, I think it's a formality. Most floors skills translate a level up on rings.

That's very true that it can vary between people and that all rings variations are usually harder like L-sit, planche, etc. It can also be an unusual case like how some people find a rings maltese harder than a rings planche when maltese is usually harder for most people.

What you were doing was a bars maltese then which has pretty much the same grip as on rings without the false grip. Vass/Ashita did say he could do it on rings and bars, but not on floor due to the grip and how it generates more tension and feels completely different. When you do it on the floor make sure to have at least a 2x shoulder width grip if you haven't already so your body can get low enough.

Let me know how different if feels between the rings, bars, and floor variations next time you try. I'm interested in the comparisons between them.

B1214N said:

I mean have you ever seen a completely perfect Japanese HS in person or video before? Even among elite gymnasts on youtube or TV, they always arch a bit just like all inverted crosses I have seen.

I have seen it done without an arch. 

Hari_Seldon said:

I have seen it done without an arch. 

Really!? In person or video? Could you give me the link if its on the internet? Would that mean an inverted cross with a perfect body line is possible too? This is good news! I thought it was impossible because I've never seen it before of all the gymnasts/people I see online or TV.

B1214N said:

Really!? In person or video? Could you give me the link if its on the internet? Would that mean an inverted cross with a perfect body line is possible too? This is good news! I thought it was impossible because I've never seen it before of all the gymnasts/people I see online or TV.

I've seen it in person several times. It's not super rare at gymnastics meets. But there's no incentive to train the aesthetics since you just need to hold it for 2 seconds and you're done. 

It absolutely does not mean that an inverted cross is possible with a perfect body line. The japanese handstand is an order of magnitude easier to hold because the friction of the floor helps keep your hands from moving any further out. I would guess it takes about as much strength as a 50% bodyweight inverted cross. 

You're probably about right on with the 50% guesstimation. The lowest setting on my trainers they say is roughly 60%intensity of regular rings, with the highest setting being on par. And I can hold an inv. Cross about one step below the easiest setting. Trying the Wide handstand the first time, I felt like dexterity, balance and control were my main problems. Didn't feel much stress on my shoulder girdle or arms.

Granted, whatever wall assisted Japanese handstand I have is pretty ugly at this time. But yea, monumentally easier than an inv. Cross.

Kind of digressing, but since we were discussing floor Malteses earlier I have to share this. You've probably all seen it but its the nicest fl Maltese I've ever seen

I have not seen that. It is very nice  B)

So I was toying around with some floor Maltese leans. I'd like to have a form check, but don't want to start a whole new topic to do so, so I'll just inject a vid here. Also, is this how you guys would or do lean into a floor Maltese? Idk the best way.

@B1214N, there's one attempt of a palms Maltese in the vid, my first try at that. It felt weird. Probably harder.

Form seems ok.

How are you on maltese pushups? Can you do them with your feet against the wall? 

I dont know much about inverted cross, but im sure japanese handstand is way easier that 50% bodyweight inverted cross. Without ever training for it i can easily do a quite wide japanese handstand, and like you say, the friction against the floor makes it require very little strength. I am able to do an inverted cross on aerial straps(not even in the same galaxy strength wise compared to on rings since the strap is on the forearm) and I cant really feel that there is much connection between that and japanese handstand

Though im no expert on the issue, I would say it works as a drill for inverted cross only when it comes to understanding body position. Hehe, maybe very slippery gloves could be an idea.

As for position, wide arms is no different than a normal handstand except it requires more presicion from the fingers since you have fewer to work with and a much wider base of support. It is easier to do this one with an arch since you can control a little from your lower back.

I'll have to get back to you on the push ups, I don't regularly do them. Probably wouldn't have too much trouble doing a few reps with a somewhat narrower grip.

Handbalancer said:

I am able to do an inverted cross on aerial straps(not even in the same galaxy strength wise compared to on rings since the strap is on the forearm) and I cant really feel that there is much connection between that and japanese handstand

Actually, depending on where on the forearm you place the straps, it would be equivalent to performing the skill from the hands with  somewhere around 50-80% bodyweight. (~50% if you were near the elbow, and ~80% if you were near the wrist.)

alec_ar said:

I'll have to get back to you on the push ups, I don't regularly do them. Probably wouldn't have too much trouble doing a few reps with a somewhat narrower grip.

Maltese pushups should not be performed with a narrower grip. If they are too hard, inch your hands towards your shoulders a bit. This will increase the ROM of the pushup but also make it easier. Try to maintain the ~45 degree angle between the arm and the torso; this ensures that you are working the right muscles. 

I'm not sure if Danny Rodrigues is sagging and arching a bit in the that photo.

Sort like this one:

If he wasn't sagging and arching then that is one of the best floor malteses I have seen.

I think the best floor maltese I have seen is from Ali Al Asi:

Here are other photos of floor malteses:

In this youtube video, I think the best floor malteses are from Ri Se Gwang (3:16), David Kikuchi (3:54), Chen Yibing (3:56), and Danny Rodrigues's if it wasn't sagging and arching.

Ali Al Asi presses up to it from lying down (crazy, but it is slightly saggy and arched): 

Al Ali Asi's is very good. I don't think Danny sagged, he had a nice body position. I can link a vid. Can you link Asi's? I wanna see a press to Maltese pretty badly on floor. Personally I still think in terms of shoulder line with hands and shoulders Danny's was the cleanest I've seen, maybe I'm just biased

Either way, I'm really enjoying floor Maltese leans and will continue with them. @jfslocum, thanks for the tip. I'll try the push ups next time I work out.

I can't really tell from that view to be honest. It does look better then that photo of Danny Rodrigues I posted, but the top of his body line looked like the second photo of Ali AL Asi's maltese (same as in the video) which was sagging slightly. If it was indeed not sagging then I would say it is on par with the first photo of Ali Al Asi's maltese I posted which didn't have any noticeable sag in the hips. They both looked the same in terms of shoulder line with hands to me though.

That video I posted of Ali Al Asi's FX included the press/squeeze to maltese from floor at about 0:45 seconds.

Anyways here is another view of the same maltese(?) at about 0:36 seconds in this video:

I think it is even harder to get into a maltese that way than leaning into it and that is maybe why he arches and sags. 

It looks absolutely insane!

I have seen God. Haha, that was amazingly fun to watch. It's funny how two of the only people competing Victorians have really solid floor Maltese's. Just sayin'.

Asi is brutally strong. Never super clean, but amazingly strong.

Yes, I see that too. It's like the victorian and this might have some correlation with each other. Danny Rodrigues's victorian is much cleaner and better though, but they both have pretty much equally good floor malteses.

I enjoyed that video of Ali Al Asi. Not the cleanest landings I have seen, but his legs look huge compared to most gymnast. And the way he lifts into the maltese was awesome.