Struggling with front pulls

[Paradox]

Hey all,

I have been trying to progress from tucked to flat tuck front pulls for a while now, but I am encountering some problems. I can churn out 8 tucked front pulls at 305 tempo (I actually work in sets of 5x5 with 202 tempo). anyways, I'm trying to make the progression to adv tuck front pull. But everytime I try to initiate the pull in adv tuck, I just can't get past 15 degrees. I don't know what is limiting me. I am depressing and retracting my shoulders before I initiate the pull. My body wants to round the hips into basic tuck when I get to 15 degrees.

I should also state that sometimes, towards the last few sets, I start to feel strain somewhere in between my mid and anterior deltoids (both shoulders). I wouldn't call it pain per se...well ok it is a kind of pain but strain is a better word for how it feels. I figured it was pretty strange, since those muscles don't work during front lever (I think...). I really cant pinpoint if its the ant delt or the mid, it really feels in between, in the meaty part of the shoulder (towards the pec, not the bicep).

I also cannot do a tucked front pull unless I retract and depress my shoulders before I initiate the pull. If I try from a true dead hang, I get nowhere and the stress happens in the stated deltoid area. I thought this was strange too, since i have seen gymnasts and recreationalists do front pulls from dead hangs with no problem.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I have always struggled with front pulls, maybe because I never really practiced them when I started out. Even now, they are still the hardest exercise in my routine. I have no trouble or pain with any other movements...at all. FL rows, FL static, Back lever, planche, pullups, handstands etc...no pain, feels good, progressing well. No pain throughout the week in any joints, etc...etc. Just this front pull bothers me (I can't progress + shoulder stress/pain).

I have a 9 seconds max static hold on the adv tuck FL, if it matters.

[Parth Rajguru]

It's too early for you to be working FL Pulls in the adv tuck position. With a 9 second maximal hold, it's still maximal strength that limits you in the position. When you can do the adv tuck FL for atleast 30 seconds, revisit the adv tuck FL Pull and see how it goes. I'd be surprised if it didn't improve significantly.

You're stronger in the eccentric than in isometrics than in concentric movements. You're struggling with the isometric(adv tuck FL) and are trying to do a concentric movement that requires more strength.

Because you can't depress and retract your scapulae from a dead hang, you should work on scapular retraction and depression. Trap3 raises, powell raises, and other similar movements will help with the activation and strength needed to progress to shrugs while in a deadhang. This should improve your front lever and FL pull performance as well.

[Paradox]

Aha. Thank you! I assumed the concentric movement should be easier. I guess I will just increase the tempo of tuck front pulls while I wait to increase my adv FL hold. I am on week 5 of my SSC (4 sets of 5 seconds), so it will take a few months until I am at 30 seconds. Interestingly, I have above 60 seconds hold on the tuck, so I think my core must be really lacking for my adv tuck hold to be so poor. I say core because when I get tired my hips have a tendency to pike back to the tuck position, but I can always stay horizontal.

Ah sorry, maybe I did not explain well. I can depress and retract in the dead hang. I meant that I've seen people who don't depress and retract and then they perform the front pull. However, I cannot do that. I must depress and retract otherwise I can't pull up in the tuck position. Makes sense? I just thought it was a little strange.

What do you think of this shoulder strain that I get in the last few reps?

[Parth Rajguru]

Tucking also decreases the lever length, making it easier on the pulling chain. You may be tucking because of fatigue in the pulling musculature. You don't necessarily have a weakness in the core.

Why is the volume so low on the adv tuck FL? 20 seconds total of front levers per workout is quite low. You'd see better results around 60 seconds total, as Coach Sommer recommends. You don't have to increase all at once, you can add 10 seconds per week until you are at 60 seconds per session and evaluate your maximum hold times then. I don't think you will see optimal results by only doing 20 seconds of work for front levers per session for 8-12 weeks straight.

I'm not sure what the source of the pain is. It could soft tissue restrictions, structural imbalances, improper form, etc. I'd strongly recommend working on external rotator, scapular depression, and scapular retraction supplemental work to help keep the shoulders healthy. Self-Myofascial Release, mobility work, correcting form if there is an issue, etc. are also good ideas.

[Paradox]

Hmm OK, I just remember someone here saying that if the shoulders fail, you'd drop below horizontal, and if your core fails, you'd start to pike. You make sense, though. I knew it would be both core and pulling, but I just assumed the majority of the problem lies in the core.

Thats all the volume I can do with adv tuck FL. If I try to add in another set, I can hold it for 2 seconds tops. I mean, form is perfect according to my exercise buddy - flat back, straight arms, horizontal. I just can't hold it for more than 20 seconds aggregate.

I was working 3x30 basic tuck before, just accumulating time. Even though I hit 60 seconds in June, I could only hold the adv tuck for 5 seconds. Here I am, 4 months later, with a max of 9 seconds. 4 second difference in 4 months. Not sure what the problem is.

I used to be on the WOD for 7 months, but I was just so confused on how to progress. Coach Sommer states: choose a static that you can hold for at least 15 seconds. Well, I can hold the tuck for 15 seconds, but I can't hold the adv tuck for 15 seconds. So I never did the adv tuck on the WOD. I just didn't know when it would be suitable for me to progress the static holds.

Everything else is going fine, just this crazy front lever.

Alright, I am going to do some research around the web for this external rotator work and such. Thanks for the tips.

Actually, come to think of it, how do you progress anything on the WOD? If there are certain required rep ranges, and if you can master something with a certain progress, but can with a harder progress, than what the heck do you do? I would substitute the ring strength days with skills I needed to learn, like muscle ups and shoulderstands and side levers. The movements are so spread apart throughout the WOD, I never learned anything. Come to think of it, it's actually embarrassing how little I've progressed since I started. I must be doing something extremely wrong.

[Paradox]

Thanks for helping me out, guys!

Zach,

Good to know that you felt a similar strain. I will be keeping an eye on it, and I'm in the process of finding some auxiliary scapular work to do as Raja mentioned.

I am on an SSC right now with l-sit, adv tuck back lever, planche leans, handstands, and adv tuck front lever. I'm currently in week 5 and everything is getting easier, but the front lever has maintained the same difficulty. I have done two previous SSC cycles with great success in all moves.

I am not really sure at this point if I want to continue with the WODs or move to basic Killroy or do something else. For the past few weeks my FBE work has been very crappy. I finish my FSP's and then screw around with random FBE's and then go home all depressed. I need to find out which program I should stick to. I mean, my goal is simply "master every exercise in the book." I am not concerned with getting bigger muscles or anything of the sort. I've been trying Killroy, but the lack of fun compared to the WOD makes it really hard for me to find any enthusiasm or motivation to do it. Hence, I start screwing around. If you think Killroy or something other than WOD is the right path for me, I will put my complete effort into that then.

The WOD becomes a hassle when movements like muscle ups, shoulderstands, rolls, and l-sit to tuck planche show up. For l-sit to tuck planche, I would do negatives of adv frog stand to l-sit. The problem isn't so much scaling as it is knowing when to progress to a harder move. Because when you progress to a harder move, you can't do the designated repetitions and tempo. So then what?

Yes, I have beyond a 60 second hold on the tuck. I am definitely retracting and depressing, because when I started GST I wasn't, so I learned my lesson soon after that. Pushing my hands down is kind of strange. I mean, in the adv tuck I am definitely pushing my hands down. But in the tuck, I have to control it - I have to be wary of applying too much pressure or I'll pull into an inverted hang. Does that make sense?

I start from an inverted hang - so I flatten my back, flex my abs, depress then retract, pull my neck back, point my toes, and then lower into the hold. Correct?

[Paradox]

I do remember Coach writing a post about widening the back in FL, but it slips my mind easily. I will integrate this concept into my training. Thanks.

Haha, that's a great email name!

I will stick to the Killroy program. I am not in a rush to achieve front lever or anything else, so a specialized routine is not necessary. Thank you for the offer, though. I'll look deep within myself to find the motivation and strength to stick to the Killroy program! I am just going through a rough patch. That little tidbit about Allan helps me out a bit Sometimes I get wound up in wanting results quickly, forgetting that gymnastics is a very long journey.

Alright, so I came up with an idea for getting my adv tuck up hold time up. I'm thinking that I should start doing a mixture of tuck and adv tuck. So what I came up with is 4 front lever sets:

the first front lever set I will do adv tuck for 5 seconds.

the rest of the front lever sets will be done in tuck for 3x30.

Every week, I will add 1 second to the adv tuck hold, so in 10 weeks (about the time of an SSC) I'd be at 15 seconds, at which point I could switch over to a reasonable 7 sets of 8 seconds SSC in adv tuck. Couple this with all the front lever FBE work from Killroy (rows, FL pulls, front pulls, yewkis, etc).

Do you think this would work? Or is the adv tuck time so low now that it is pointless? I figure, this way, my nervous system is not getting so fatigued from these hard 4x5 adv tuck holds every day. It ends up being a total of 4 adv tuck holds through the week on a m-t-th-f schedule. Very light work that supplements the FBE FL work. The 3x30 tuck is just there to maintain my stuff. Thoughts?

[Brian Li]

You can also add front pull negatives to your workouts. Just make sure to scale them to where you can actually control it.

[Paradox]

Alright, alright. Excellent tips! I'll add these FL pulls in on my mppu days - is once a week fine? I am considering doing rows, yewkis, and pullups on the other days, with front pulls once a week as a core movement (paired with the pullup day).

I actually have a ton of videos. I got into the habit of recording everything single thing I do, from my warm up wrist series to my mobility, in the name of good form Unfortunately, they are on my phone and I don't have a correct cable to transfer the videos to my computer. It can be sent over text, but my phone does not have a brower upload capability.

You can also add front pull negatives to your workouts. Just make sure to scale them to where you can actually control it.

Yes, I've been playing around with negatives the past few days. I drop right through once my body is below horizontal, though.

[Parth Rajguru]

I think one of the reasons that I had no trouble when moving onto the adv tuck front lever and beyond was that I built a lot of volume(and work capacity) with the easier progression before moving on. I'm talking about 10-15 sets of 15 second holds with the tuck front lever. It's a simple idea, using the concept of alternating accumulation and intensification phases.

If you don't see any progress from your SSC or other intensification means, you may have to return to the tuck front lever and build some volume before progressing. In the mean time, work on the activation in the front lever, focusing on scapular retraction, neck extension, and pulling your hips to the bar.

[Paradox]

I think one of the reasons that I had no trouble when moving onto the adv tuck front lever and beyond was that I built a lot of volume(and work capacity) with the easier progression before moving on. I'm talking about 10-15 sets of 15 second holds with the tuck front lever. It's a simple idea, using the concept of alternating accumulation and intensification phases.

If you don't see any progress from your SSC or other intensification means, you may have to return to the tuck front lever and build some volume before progressing. In the mean time, work on the activation in the front lever, focusing on scapular retraction, neck extension, and pulling your hips to the bar.

What do you mean by alternating accumulation and intensification phases? I get accumulation, but the intensity stays the same since you're only doing tuck, correct?

15 sets of 15 seconds is crazy! You were doing this every workout day with standard 1 minute rests? Or rather, you built up to this by practicing it every workout day? How did this affect your FBE's afterwards?

Yes, I have returned to the tuck, building up more volume. 3x30 with a good mix of dynamic front lever FBE.

[Joshua Naterman]

You may also need to work on scapular movement and activation. If you aren't keeping the scaps pressed tightly against your ribs on your back, you won't be able to build much strength. That could be an issue. Might not be for you, but if so it's a must fix.