Nic Branson Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 If you've read Josh's post, go back read it again. Make sure you note the part regarding activation and learning to use. The point of progression and the keys to progress is not just tissue conditioning. While it is very important you have to teach your nervous system how to do this stuff properly. Muscle activation and patterning has to be learned. Do not take it for granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Roseman Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Did have some amazing dreams. Nic, yes I picked up on that. Not just doing random shoulder exercises, but specfic movements that cause specfic muscles to fire, and perhaps even in a specific order...have done that with SA before. Would you say to work on this before doing rope climbs, or get some basic experience withclimbing to develop the strength and then refine it further? Or to work on both together?When one can do a sport fairly well it's sometimes harder to go back and relearn it. On the other hand, it is frustrating to work on isolated details when one can be "playing". Honestly every sport that required training,such as skiing or tennis (or chess or piano playing) I took a few lessons up front and then was able to get up to a fairly impressive level on my own. It might have been better to take more time up front to work on fundamentals, but on the other hand that tends to sap passion in all but the most dedicated. In other words, I can put in some up-front work but not sure how much before I lose interest...a weakness on my part perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Did have some amazing dreams. Nic, yes I picked up on that. Not just doing random shoulder exercises, but specfic movements that cause specfic muscles to fire, and perhaps even in a specific order...have done that with SA before. Would you say to work on this before doing rope climbs, or get some basic experience withclimbing to develop the strength and then refine it further? Or to work on both together?When one can do a sport fairly well it's sometimes harder to go back and relearn it. On the other hand, it is frustrating to work on isolated details when one can be "playing". Honestly every sport that required training,such as skiing or tennis (or chess or piano playing) I took a few lessons up front and then was able to get up to a fairly impressive level on my own. It might have been better to take more time up front to work on fundamentals, but on the other hand that tends to sap passion in all but the most dedicated. In other words, I can put in some up-front work but not sure how much before I lose interest...a weakness on my part perhaps.Not a weakness, I don't think, so much as common human nature I think the major difference to keep in mind is that here we're talking about one single thing that carries over to all upper body work and not a special thing to do that is different for each movement. Having said that, Coach pointed out to me (and I think he's right) that the general public and our general membership just doesn't have a good enough understanding of what we (Nic and I) are trying to teach for them to benefit from it, and that sometimes this can be discouraging for people. That's not the goal, and since we can't be there to walk you through everything in person I apologize for any confusion I may have caused!For now, just focus on this: Whatever you can do climbing on a rope, as long as it feels good to you, is a good idea. Just take your time and progress slowly while having fun. I think it sounds like you're doing exactly that, so keep going the way you're going! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Roseman Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Not a weakness, I don't think, so much as common human nature I think the major difference to keep in mind is that here we're talking about one single thing that carries over to all upper body work and not a special thing to do that is different for each movement. Having said that, Coach pointed out to me (and I think he's right) that the general public and our general membership just doesn't have a good enough understanding of what we (Nic and I) are trying to teach for them to benefit from it, and that sometimes this can be discouraging for people. That's not the goal, and since we can't be there to walk you through everything in person I apologize for any confusion I may have caused!For now, just focus on this: Whatever you can do climbing on a rope, as long as it feels good to you, is a good idea. Just take your time and progress slowly while having fun. I think it sounds like you're doing exactly that, so keep going the way you're going!Appreciate that No mea culpa required though Josh. I'm sure I would be better off with greater preparation in general. Sometimes as I think you have done before, one needs to almost breakdown and rebuild their game from the ground up. Time required is a factor, but also willingness to take a step back and trust in the process play a part. On the other hand, somettimes one makes do with their base and tries to repair and extend it as they go along for better or worse. Anyway, bottom line is I'm defintiely interested in better ways to do it and am able to put some time into prehab and prep. I suspect that most people here are too. Thanks for your pointers and encouragment - I definitely will keep an eye on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik de Kort Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Having said that, Coach pointed out to me (and I think he's right) that the general public and our general membership just doesn't have a good enough understanding of what we (Nic and I) are trying to teach for them to benefit from itWe're working on it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Hahaha, I know you are Keep it up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Hahn Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 @ Nic Branson and Joshua Naterman Is this muscle and movement patterning/training and neural activation that you are talking about for the shoulders as well as the hips something that is taught and learned in physical therapy school and exercise science degrees, or is this something that you are learning on your own through books, materials, personal experimentation and education? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody Hahn Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 @ NicAlso, I remember quite some time ago that you mentioned that you were thinking about switching from a degree in Physical Therapy to a doctorate in something else. If you don't mind me asking, did you ever switch? If so, what were your reasons? What are you doing in school now? Just curious because I am looking at going to Physical Therapy school eventually but I like to know what other people do and why they do it and because I still haven't quite made up my mind yet. Cody Hahn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 @ Nic Branson and Joshua Naterman Is this muscle and movement patterning/training and neural activation that you are talking about for the shoulders as well as the hips something that is taught and learned in physical therapy school and exercise science degrees, or is this something that you are learning on your own through books, materials, personal experimentation and education?I have never seen this formally taught, it is simply what works in practice and is supported by all known biomechanical knowledge.I cannot speak for physical therapy school, but I have never seen scapular stability and activation addressed specifically during rotator cuff rehab when I did it or with anyone who has described their therapy to me.Kind of crazy since lack of proper activation of the thoracic-scapular muscles is what keeps the shoulder from impinging and moving wrong in the first place... This is linked strongly with upper thoracic kyphosis and in my opinion should be an integrated part of all shoulder rehab. That, of course, is why I am moving towards Physiatry. It is a much more root-cause driven practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Branson Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 The training of activation and muscle patterning is coming more into the light slowly. It's always been out on the cutting edge fringes but never mainstreamed as it is not as easy to teach and explain also in some cases was to mess up. I've sent some stuff to Josh for example via Pm's that I will not put into the public view just because doing it wrong would be a waste of time or even set you backwards. I personally believe self discovery of technique is huge so guidance needs to be done carefully for ideal results. Most PT schools that I know will do a little bit of it but still most treat the local injury scale not the outlying movement pattern issues. I am not pursuing PT. With a lot of thought I do not feel that is really the best use of where my strengths seem to be. I feel I can do more and be of better service to people through teaching/coaching both in person and in the future I would like to do online coaching also. Right now I am taking some circus training classes and increasing my knowledge of Coach's methods. To that I am adapting my movement work and always seeking to improve it. I still teach KB on the side and some odds and ends like Basq lifting. I am not the most gifted athlete, quite far from it. Something which I believe has helped me a lot to be a better teacher/coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I agree. I have learned a lot more my second time around, after all these injuries, than when things just came naturally.You are a very good teacher, I look forward to your development as a coach and trainer! It is always nice to see people who are already very good become even better Perhaps you and I and a few other like-minded people will be able to collect data on this approach and develop some kind of standardization that we can eventually get put into more standard practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Roseman Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Kind of crazy since lack of proper activation of the thoracic-scapular muscles is what keeps the shoulder from impinging and moving wrong in the first place... This is linked strongly with upper thoracic kyphosis and in my opinion should be an integrated part of all shoulder rehab. That, of course, is why I am moving towards Physiatry. It is a much more root-cause driven practice.Is this kind of what you are talking about http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blo ... ty-a-myth/ ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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