Need advice on progress.

[Faraz Ahmed]

Hi,

I have been doing the static hold's for sometime now.

I was not very consistent and was doing it on and off.

At the moment, I am able to do the advanced frog stand straight arm for like 10 secs

and the front lever tuck for 10 secs.

Now, after a long gap

I have again started to do the exercises daily.

I only do these 3 exercises daily apart from my weight training.

advanced frog stand - 4 to 5 times of about 10 -15 secs

front lever tuck - 4 to 5 times for 10 secs

L-sit 30 secs

these are the only exercises I am doing at the moment.

I have read the prerequisites but it just confuses me even further.

I dont want to just keep thinking about what to do

and that's what happens when I try to figure out my program.

So, do you think doing these 3 exercises is good enough for now?

or do you think I should add a few more exercises too.

I read somewhere about planche leans and will be doing it too,

but then the question arises whether doing it everyday is a good thing or not.

So, can anyone here just tell me a few things that are necessary for progress

in addition to the above 3 I mentioned?

please help me out.

Regards,

Faraz

[Paradox]

I understand your confusion, as I, for many months, also could not get all the information straight. I changed my routine 4 times in 5 months.

The prerequisites are the beginning - the VERY, VERY beginning - of one's gymnastic journey. There are six of them, which must be achieved to 3 sets of 60 seconds each before one can progress onwards. At first, these six exercises will make up your entire workout. They are the foundation upon which everything else will begin. So, the first question is, did you achieve 3x60 on all the prerequisites?

After the prerequisites are accomplished, they then become part of your warm up. You perform them for 1x60 each and then move on.

Planche leans, l-sits, stomach-to-wall handstands and german hangs come after the prerequisites. Front lever, back lever, and planche come after a 3x60 l-sit. Yes, it takes a long time.

If you don't have 3x60 on the prerequisites, it's time to step back and work on them. I don't think it would be so bad if you maintained your frog stand, and maybe a couple of l-sits and front lever tucks every week. Someone else might have a different opinion, but I don't see sense in losing those abilities if you've already gained them.

If you have the book, you might consider adding in a basic strength routine. However many days you want to work out is up to you. The routine is in the section labeled 'program design options'. Most people on the forum call it the KIllroy70 (for what reason I do not know considering Coach Sommer came up with it). The static portion would be your prerequisites. The dynamic/FBE portion would be things like pushups, rows, jumping dips, etc.

[Joachim Nagler]

It's called Killroy70 because the user Killroy70 came up with this neat summary. Look here:

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewto ... =14&t=1957

But you should add some core and leg work as it is discussed in another thread right now.

Maybe i got this wrong, but i think the l-sit is a prerequisite for plance, and german hang 3x30s for front/back lever. So you can start training those before you start working towards your planche.

Otherwise nice post, paradox.

[Blairbob]

L-sit is a prereq for PL, pretty damn useful for FL. German Hang is a prereq for BL.

Planche leans are fine instead of tuck planche.

If you don't want to think about it, just do Killroy70 and you'll be alright.

[Paradox]

It's called Killroy70 because the user Killroy70 came up with this neat summary. Look here:

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewto ... =14&t=1957

But you should add some core and leg work as it is discussed in another thread right now.

Maybe i got this wrong, but i think the l-sit is a prerequisite for plance, and german hang 3x30s for front/back lever. So you can start training those before you start working towards your planche.

Otherwise nice post, paradox.

Yes, I've seen that post - I have just always thought it was neatly and blatantly summarized in the book. But I think the name "killroy" caught on more than anything else.

I am already aware of the prerequisite exercises. It is just that I think it very pointless to give up the basic bent-arm frog and the rounded front lever tuck. A couple of these static positions a week won't kill him. I really don't think it's going to mess up his foundational strength. The basic FL tuck is hardly a red flag for injury, and the strength required for bent frogstand is child's play for anyone who can do a few pushups. The OP already stated he can do a 30 second l-sit. The strength for a frogstand is easily there, and the OP also lifts weights. Just my opinion.

[Joachim Nagler]

It is just that I think it very pointless to give up the basic bent-arm frog and the rounded front lever tuck. A couple of these static positions a week won't kill him. I really don't think it's going to mess up his foundational strength. The basic FL tuck is hardly a red flag for injury, and the strength required for bent frogstand is child's play for anyone who can do a few pushups. The OP already stated he can do a 30 second l-sit. The strength for a frogstand is easily there, and the OP also lifts weights. Just my opinion.

no one argued against that

[Faraz Ahmed]

Thanks for the answers guys.

Didnt reply early, because I figured I better do some more reading

of the prerequisites thread first.

REad up Killroy's but was not sure how to proceed with it.

So, I decided go with what paradox recommends and go for prerequisites

It was very confusing for me

and it seems that these are the 6 (maybe there are more?)prerequisite exercises

that I should be doing:

1) hollow hold

2) wall handstand

3) hollow plank --- can you explain what is this?

4) arch hold

5) horizontal and vertical pulls

6)PB support ---- I dont know this one too.

then I also found a few other exercises mentioned and I am not sure if they are

prerequisites or not:

Prone Support

Supine Support

Lateral Support Left

Lateral Support Right

PB Support

Dead Hang

German Hang

I know about dead hang and german hang but dont know about the others yet.

I also read about scapular press or something similar, not sure what that is.

Is there any harm if I do those prerequisites everyday or even alternate days?

am I supposed to do dips and pull ups after the prerequisites everyday?

Sorry, for being so dense but there's so much here,

and It becomes confusing.

[Vincent Stoyas]

These are the standard Prereqs:

1) Plank (Hollow plank means that you should have a hollow body. You need to protract your shoulders as much as possible. It's almost the opposite of a hollow hold)

2) Reverse Plank

3) Hollow hold

4) PB Support (just hold support position on PBs)

5) Dead Hang

6) Arch hold

These should be worked up to total worktime of 3x60s. Once you can hold it for that allotted time then you can cut it back down to 1x60s and start workings actual FSPs.

The other stuff you mentioned can be added to your warm up, but that's preference. everyone's warm up varies based upon what they feel they need to work on.

The prerequisites are performed every workout day. They are a warm up.

After you finish the prerequisites (and if you're strong enough, FSP work) then you proceed to your actual workout.

This is a standard template for a workout

1) Jump Rope

2) Mobility work

3) Prerequisites

4) FSPs

5) Skill work i.e. Handstands, FX work

6) WOD

7) Prehab

8) Stretching

[Blairbob]

The wall HS and vertical and horizontal pulls are not prerequisites. However, the HS (and wall HS for beginners through advanced) is a basic crucial gymnastics skill.

A "hollow" plank is nothing more than doing a plank while keeping the body "hollow". Squeeze your glutes, rotate your hips under, round your shoulders up like a mad cat.

What you call a prone support, I call a straight arm plank. What you call a supine support, I call an inverted or reverse plank. Semantics, really.

Straight arm side planks were done in the seminar and are considered pre requisites. All the planks were done with straight arms when I went to the seminar and as far as I know what the prequisites are considered.

Scapular presses are just shrugging the shoulders up and down while in a pushup or prone support, straight arm plank.

You can do these shrugs in horizontal or vertical support or HS as well as in both a supinated and pronated hang or body row. All good warmup stuff.

Vincearoo was correct with the standard prerequisites. However, the hang should be done in both pronated and supinated fashion. Again, this shouldn't be terribly difficult. It's just about establishing some basic mobility and super basic strength. Just about everyone shouldn't have a problem with the prequisites except that the hollow hold will tax many, some may find the arch hold a tad bit difficult as well as the PB support. The german hang will probably be difficult to many because it's an awkward position that many don't really work that ROM, if ever. I didn't until my 20's really.

Vincearoo, I would prefer that HS and skill work be done before the FSP's hold but it doesn't really matter too much if you are just doing 4x15 or 3x20. I do like doing L work right after the prerequisites.

For myself, I like to include Wall HS in my warmup as well as doing shrugs in the hangs and supports. 10-15 reps suffices. You can kind roll your shoulder around in the german hang a bit as well and I will generally throw in some hollow and arch body rocks though I'm not all too fond of the side body rocks or side plank hip-ups you see gymnasts do a lot of.

The point is, the prerequisite WU is just a warmup. You don't have to make it super complicated. Some people may have to train them because of a lack of mobility or basic strength but don't become a master at warming up.

[Vincent Stoyas]

Yes, you're right, my apologies. Skill work before FSPs. I flip them around interchangeably depending on the WOD and what kind of effort I want to put into the skill work. Some days are heavier on handstands and other days are lighter. That's okay too, right?

[Blairbob]

It's fine for the most part.

Some days you just don't have time for a lot of skill work or the inclination or energy to do so. I would have those days that I would be dead after a warmup and just move on to the strength training portion (FSP's+FBE's, etc).

It's fine to have heavy and light days. Definitely breaks up the monotony. For my main days, I would just do a minimum of HS work, HS series and presses. On my off day which was Wednesday, I would spend way more time working on hand balancing and trampoline just switching back and forth. I probably could have done it Saturday as well but by then, I was pretty burn out after coaching in the morning and just wanted to get away from the gym. Maybe I would get the inclination to do some handstands on Saturday or Sunday but nothing of any considerable volume.

[Faraz Ahmed]

These are the standard Prereqs:

1) Plank (Hollow plank means that you should have a hollow body. You need to protract your shoulders as much as possible. It's almost the opposite of a hollow hold)

2) Reverse Plank

3) Hollow hold

4) PB Support (just hold support position on PBs)

5) Dead Hang

6) Arch hold

These should be worked up to total worktime of 3x60s. Once you can hold it for that allotted time then you can cut it back down to 1x60s and start workings actual FSPs.

The other stuff you mentioned can be added to your warm up, but that's preference. everyone's warm up varies based upon what they feel they need to work on.

Wow! You made it so clear for me. Very helpful.

Now, about the dead hang. I checked out youtube for dead hangs and they show

dead hang pullups. Is that what I am supposed to do? or do I need to hold in the top position.

and I see videos of parallel bar support swings

and I assume that I would just have to remain static i.e. just keep holding myself straight

without the swings. right?

The prerequisites are performed every workout day. They are a warm up.

After you finish the prerequisites (and if you're strong enough, FSP work) then you proceed to your actual workout.

This is a standard template for a workout

1) Jump Rope

2) Mobility work

3) Prerequisites

4) FSPs

5) Skill work i.e. Handstands, FX work

6) WOD

7) Prehab

8) Stretching

I think I should be able to do the fsp's after the prerequisites, because I tried them and they

dont seem that difficult, except for the dead hangs. i.e. if I have to hold myself in the top position.

So, say I finish the prerequisites, then I go ahead and do the L sits or whatever other version of the L sit I am able to perform properly. I have just come off an injury and I find I am unable to do the L sit for more than a few seconds now, so I will have to rebuild my strength.

so, as far as FSP's are concerned I can only do L sits because it seems that I cant do planche work or front lever's or other fsp's until I can do L sits for a long time.

But I also need to build up my basic strength and to get ready for planche, so I am also thinking of doing planche leans and planche pushups too, obviously with my feet on the floor.

Do you think I should do pullups or chin ups too. I do the inverted rows(on rings) a few times a week at the moment.

In another post by Slizzardman, I think, he says that beginner should also do these basic exercises too

- FBE

push ups - rows (horizontal)

dips - pullups (vertical)

handstand pushups - ring curl (inverted)

- core (HLL, v-ups)

Do you think I should do the easier versions of the FBE'S above, or whichever ones I can perform after I do the FSP's ?

I dont see the FBE'S in your template or maybe you are just using some other name for the FBE'S.

so, to summarise.

I will first do some skipping.

then some mobility ( it's something like wrist pushups, right?)

then I will do the prerequisites you mentioned.

then I will do fsp's and then the fbe's mentioned by slizzardman

and then stretching a few times a week.

dont know what stretching I need to do though.

How many times should I do this workout in a week.

will doing it everyday be too much.

considering that I go to the gym too.

One more thing I should mention.

I dont have a parallel bar at home, it's at my gym.

so, I hope there's no harm if I do the paralle bar support when I am at my gym

instead of doing it at home with the rest of the prerequisites?

Thank you so much guys.

It has become so much more clearer about how to proceed now.

[Blairbob]

In the dead hang, all you have to is hang. Relax your shoulders and hang.

In the PB support, push down with your arms. I use the cue " long neck " with most kids in regards to support.

Work on that L-sit. In the meantime, work on Ring supports, Frogstands and Planche Leans.

Yes you should be doing pullups, dips, pushups, rows and possibly inverted rows and handstand pushups.

I didn't know I had a template. The Killroy70 program alternates vertical, horizontal, and inverted pushing and pulling with combined push/pull movement (these are for intermediates).

Most beginners should start out with 3x/week.

Use a set of chairs or stools for PB support.

Stretching depends on goals and desired mobility. DrillsandSkills has a decent resource for stretching that is simple.

[Faraz Ahmed]

Hey thanks for the explanation guys.

Very sorry for not being able to post earlier.

was busy with relatives who were staying at our place.

[optik169]

this thread helped me out more than the stickies