Challenge Accepted! The Front Lever..

[Andrew Long]

Hej! =)

*WARNING* This post may sound like I am trying to set a time limit or fast track my progress by getting some quick fix but I am just trying to have an efficient workout which will give me the most advantage in this competition with my friend

Okay I have been challenged by a friend of mine to see who can achieve a 5 second front lever first. I can currently hold a good 10 sec flat tuck and maybe a 20-30 sec tuck. He has an advantage over me having much lighter legs but I figured I have the advantage of these forums and the oodles of great knowledge that you all posses! so with my main focus being a solid 5 second front lever what would be the smartest way to train for that With the quickest results ( injury free). I was thinking of doing 4 days a week FBE all with a slow tempo of a minimum 313 and 4-6 days of FSP.

Every day FSP

Tuck front lever 10sec X 6-8 sets

ADV tuck front lever 5sec X 4-6 reps ( on only one of those days per week)

Body lever 10-20 sec X 4 sets (up to 70% of max effort per set)

Day 1 and 3:

360 pulls (adv tuck) 3x3

tuck lever rows 3x3

Front lever pulls ( advance tuck) 3x3

Day 2

360 pulls(tuck) 5x5

foot supported rows 5x5

Front lever pulls (tuck) 5x5

Day 4

360 pulls(tuck) 5x5

foot supported bulgarian rows 5x5

Front lever pulls (tuck) 5x5

1 rest day between each of those work outs. I will also have 1 vertical pull push and 1 horiztonal push on each of those days but with less focus on those. So does that look like a good plan? any insight would be great thank you =). I can not lose this to him... but I want no injuries so looking for the most effective method here if anyone has some ideas.

thanks again =)

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

Auswe. Three years ago I took up a similar FL challenge; in my case how long it would take to get a 10 second hold of the straddle FL. At that time, I had no idea about gymnastics training (I had not yet discovered gymnasticbodies.com). Not being burdened by any knowledge, I kept my FL training intuitive and very simple; mostly series of the bottom part of the FL front pull (5 times a week) on my pull up bar, plus series of kipping MU (once a week). Before I started, I had never even tried a FL; however, as a sports climber I had done my share of pull ups and campus boarding. It took me about eight weeks to get my 10 seconds FL straddle hold (that was my goal).

It may sound strange, but what helped me most was putting a freely rotating piece of pipe (4.5 cm wide) over my pull up bar. I think it gave me much better feedback about my form, such as the need to contract my scapula, pulling my head back while pushing down on my hands. Here is a video clip of the training. (I can see now that my arms were not regulation straight, but otherwise the result was not all that bad.)

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After that I started concentrating on my free HS while only spending time to maintain my FL on the rings (by doing mostly negatives lowering from inverted hang to a FL with one leg extended and holding that position for 3-5 seconds). Just doing that, after another 6 months I got to a 5 seconds full lay FL hold.

So based on that very personal and limited experience, my advice to you. Keep it simple, and go for volume. Start your training on a pull up bar (with a rotating sleeve); it is easier that on rings. Good luck.

[David Picó García]

I would add full front lever negatives from inverted to hang as slow as possible trying to stop at FL position. My first full Fl came just adding this at the begining of every workout. At first it was a drop rather than a negative, but quickly become to a more controlled movement.

[Andrew Long]

mmm some interesting thoughts there it seems lowering into it helped you both a lot maybe I will mess around with that. as for the free moving pipe idea I know what you mean with how the grip can affect the amount of activation of muscles you get. When I try pull to full lay on an easy crimp hold using a finger board I can actually hold it for 1-2 seconds.... but try it on rings and not even close... I will be doing my training on rings though as the competition states that the full lay front lever must be achieved on the rings. Also you think that maybe my routine for it is too much and I should stop over thinking it and just play around with it more?

[Paradox]

I'm quite confused by Frits' and Serotonin's responses.

Won't training like that set someone up for injury? What about elbow or shoulder tendonitis? Overuse injuries? A straddle FL in 8 weeks is downright astounding, but you will still recommend that given the potential dangers?

Maybe I am missing something here. Is it because internal rotation + extension puts the biceps in a safe position or something?

Keeping in mind that ausswe is still at a static tuck and adv tuck, I was thinking that his best bet would be 8 week SSC's for the adv tuck position.

But full FL negatives and full FL front pulls for someone at tuck FL? I dunno...I've never read Coach recommending something like this. I would appreciate some more insight.

[Andrew Long]

from what I have read on here people seem to agree that front lever can be pushed more than bl and planche as the force on the joints is much less by comparison. I could be misunderstanding of course... the strange thing is like I said I have held a full lay good form front lever for 1 second or so using a fingerboard... no idea how seeing as im still in tuck stages...

[Rik de Kort]

I'm quite confused by Frits' and Serotonin's responses.

Won't training like that set someone up for injury? What about elbow or shoulder tendonitis? Overuse injuries? A straddle FL in 8 weeks is downright astounding, but you will still recommend that given the potential dangers?

Maybe I am missing something here. Is it because internal rotation + extension puts the biceps in a safe position or something?

Typically you're using a pronated grip in FL. Try that in a back lever, much less stress on your elbows. So elbow stress is a lot less in FL. I think I remember Josh saying that the two FSPs you really really really need to run a SSC for are back lever and planche.

[David Picó García]

Well maybe Paradox is right and we have to be more conservative, but i've never found the FL hard at the joints. And the FL negative seems to work great, if its too hard he will just fall throw the movement. It can be done with an easier variation, but here i was talking about a controlled movement but hard enough you cant stop at front leVer position.

Personally what worked the best for me was that, just negatives atthe start of the workout, after warmup of course. Of course i did some statics position, but the boost i think it was that exercise. Nerver structured a workout plan for FL, so my volume was really low just two or three negatives. And then the WOD or whatever, ring strength series... My be that low level have done that i didnt notice any issues with joint for this exercise. This is not the same for planche or BL where elbow suffer a lot with harder progressions.

[Paradox]

Alright, thanks for the feedback guys. Perhaps I will throw a few negatives in my program too. Play around with it a little and maybe help provide some more feedback for future beginners on this forum.

Good luck, ausswe

[FritsMB Mansvelt Beck]

mmm some interesting thoughts there it seems lowering into it helped you both a lot maybe I will mess around with that. as for the free moving pipe idea I know what you mean with how the grip can affect the amount of activation of muscles you get. When I try pull to full lay on an easy crimp hold using a finger board I can actually hold it for 1-2 seconds.... but try it on rings and not even close... I will be doing my training on rings though as the competition states that the full lay front lever must be achieved on the rings. Also you think that maybe my routine for it is too much and I should stop over thinking it and just play around with it more?

Yes, I think it is much better to play around to find out what you need to strengthen or improve and then find an exercise that targets that weakness. Being able to hold a FL for 2-3 seconds hanging on a climbing board already gives you a valuable clue. Clearly you not only have plenty of specific strength (to hold a FL) but can already use some of that strength (to hold a FL); only not yet long enough and not yet hanging from rings.

So, it is quite possible that you need to learn how to use more of the strength that you already have. For example, hanging from a finger board the tension of a FL hold starts at the fingers, while when hanging from rings it starts at the wrists. To me, it feels completely different and, like you, in the beginning I found a straddle FL easier hanging from finger holds. On the other hand, it also is possible that you have to get stronger in some of the muscle groups that are very specific to the FL (we have to ask Joshua which muscles those may be given that you are a (very?) good sports climber). It is impossible for me to tell. But you can find out for yourself by “playing aroundâ€.

Both Serotonin and I seem to have improved from doing negatives, so I suggest you definitely give those a try.

I'm quite confused by Frits' and Serotonin's responses.

Won't training like that set someone up for injury? What about elbow or shoulder tendonitis? Overuse injuries? A straddle FL in 8 weeks is downright astounding, but you will still recommend that given the potential dangers?

Maybe I am missing something here. Is it because internal rotation + extension puts the biceps in a safe position or something?

Keeping in mind that ausswe is still at a static tuck and adv tuck, I was thinking that his best bet would be 8 week SSC's for the adv tuck position.

But full FL negatives and full FL front pulls for someone at tuck FL? I dunno...I've never read Coach recommending something like this. I would appreciate some more insight.

Paradox. No, I don't think there is much risk that Auswe, as an accomplished sports climber, will develop shoulder or elbow tendonitis from training the FL on rings. He is far from a rank beginner. Judging from what he has told us (also in other threads where he talks a little bit about his bouldering), he probably already has most, if not all, of the required strength and for him a FL may be more of a skill that he needs to master. If you want to be concerned, then worry about his finger tendons. Doing a full lay FL hanging from a finger board takes an insane amount of finger strength and puts a lot of stress on the finger tendons. His fingers will be very grateful that he is switching to rings.

Anyway, Auswe, I mostly wanted to help you out by giving you my own personal experience. Keep us posted about your progress. I am sure we can all learn something from it. This thread has inspired me to start to revive my FL. So thank you for your post.

[Andrew Long]

haha thanks mate, I have never thought of myself as an accomplished climber... but yea my fingers have no problems with doing it from a finger board. The point about wrists being my weakness is interesting though I do feel they could be stronger not exactly sure how to go about it. Maybe do some false grip stuff? But yea would be nice if slizzardman or someone equally knowledgeable could fill me in as too why a finger board makes it easier for me to do front lever or what my weakness my be. I am working more on my middle and lower traps as that is a weakness but it is getting pretty strong now. I tried and did a straddle for about 4 seconds on the fingerboard the other day. It wasn't perfect but the pike in my hips was so minor It was almost unnoticeable. straddle feels strange though.

anyway I will play around with the exercises I wrote in the beginning and see what is helpful as well as adding some negatives, maybe do a full lay negative and stop for a static hold right before I start to fall.

Thank you so much to everyone who replied it has helped =) and if anyone can help me figure out my weakness that would be appreciated =) sometimes you can feel it but I dunno much about physiology.