Suggestions for Back Lever Elbow Pain

[Kevin Oka]

First of all, thank you for dropping in to give advice.

Background: I had been doing Back Lever Tucks the past few weeks with palms facing out, and I had no problems with this, and about to move on to the next variation. Then after reading the appropriate section in BtGB again I noticed something I didn't before: Coach recommended to use palms facing in, but it was optional.

My situation: First time trying this with palms in, great amount of pressure on left elbow, moderate pain during, and my right tricep starting to strain (I'm assuming from compensating for the left elbow). Now I know there's a few other threads about this, but I do not believe they specified the palm direction, and their situation didn't match mine directly, hence the new thread. Sorry if this is redundant but I do have a few questions about this.

My questions: Is this pain normal for this position and not the other? Should I use the painless palms-out tuck and continue with that, sacrificing greater bicep strength, or should I scale down the painful one (to German Hangs) and try to build back up from there with palms-in in the hopes it will be painless later on?

Thanks for you time, I appreciate it

-Masato

[Daniel Burnham]

I assume by palms out you mean facing ceiling and palms in you mean facing ground.

Palms facing down builds more bicep strength and conditions the elbow like you said. It will prepare you for harder movements. It would be worth while to scale down the palms down position and build up the strength in the elbows.

[Vincent Stoyas]

It'll probably be worth your while to step it back even further to german hangs with the new grip. Palms facing down conditions the elbow is a necessary as you progress through the book. Take it slow and you'll do well.

[Kevin Oka]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I will scale down to German Hangs with the more difficult grip. I was just a little apprehensive before because I didn't want to damage my elbow any further, in addition to my front lever being on even terms :roll:

-Masato

[Joshua Naterman]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I will scale down to German Hangs with the more difficult grip. I was just a little apprehensive before because I didn't want to damage my elbow any further, in addition to my front lever being on even terms :roll:

-Masato

Make sure you can touch the ground during your german hangs until you are able to move into them and out of them without any pain. It is totally ok, and often necessary, to use your feet to take some of the pressure off at first.

I know it doesn't seem like it right now, but it won't be too long until your body adjusts and there is no pain. Just take it slow.

[Kevin Oka]

Thank you Joshua, I will take your advice into account. I have decided to not pursue any levers until I finish my l-sit progressions. I think I'll add back levers after that, and once those are finished I will pursue front levers and planche simultaneously. I think with this amount of time it would let me acclimate a lot better over time. I spent the last few days thinking over this and I believe it to be the beat course of action for me. Do you think this is acceptable?

[Joshua Naterman]

Well, everything's acceptable, but that isn't the path I would advise.

I'd focus on hollow holds unless you are easily able to hold a full lay hollow position for 60s. Once you get there I would start with bent knee L sit and tuck FL. Until then I'd just do hollow holds and PB supports, for 60s sets.

I'd focus on palms down german hangs, working up to 2-3 sets of 30+seconds.

[Blairbob]

One. Stop doing back levers. I've got no idea where you are but it might best to just to take it easy for a couple of days. Do some hanging shrugs and supports. HS and L/straddle-L work/straight arm plank, planche leans. See what is aggravated and don't do those movements.

Go back to German Hang. Seriously if you can't do 360 pulls/skin the cats, you have no business playing with BL. The bigger you are, the more dangerous the levers can be on your body.

As well, unless you have a rock solid RTO, don't do the BL. Work on the 360 pulls, maybe the FL.

For instance Sliz/Josh used to be 225 and is like 6'2. That's a lot different than my 5'1 and 165 is and bare in mind I learned a BL when I was just under 150. My wingspan is about 5 and a half feet and his is probably 6-6.5 feet. Leverage ain't easy.

[Kevin Oka]

One. Stop doing back levers. I've got no idea where you are but it might best to just to take it easy for a couple of days. Do some hanging shrugs and supports. HS and L/straddle-L work/straight arm plank, planche leans. See what is aggravated and don't do those movements.

Go back to German Hang. Seriously if you can't do 360 pulls/skin the cats, you have no business playing with BL. The bigger you are, the more dangerous the levers can be on your body.

As well, unless you have a rock solid RTO, don't do the BL. Work on the 360 pulls, maybe the FL.

For instance Sliz/Josh used to be 225 and is like 6'2. That's a lot different than my 5'1 and 165 is and bare in mind I learned a BL when I was just under 150. My wingspan is about 5 and a half feet and his is probably 6-6.5 feet. Leverage ain't easy.

Hi Blairbob,

I have already stopped all variations of the back lever since I first posted, and previously decided to stop doing them until maybe next month if everything pans out correctly. I stopped doing anything until everything feels better. I've been proficient at pb and ring support holds, I can hold them one minute for each. I've been working the L-sit progressions on rings as well, those are going fine for me. German Hangs were okay for me too, I could do 1 minute with the palms UP grip.

Then I moved on to BL tuck and was doing those pretty well until I read Coach's suggestion to do palms down and when I tried it, it hurt good enough to make me worry. I know I wouldn't continue them in that fashion if it gave ANY pain, I was just wondering if I should continue where I was with palms-up grip or revert to palms-down German Hangs, which Joshua kindly informed me on.

Also a little more background on me: I'm 5'11 and 145 lbs, very lean and almost no fat, decent muscle build but pretty much a blank slate. All I had built previously was about 2 years rock climbing muscle (almost all pulling). I also do the 6 warm-up exercises religiously (the 60 second static holds: plank, reverse plank, hollow, etc). No problems there. I can do around 3-5 sets of 360 pulls in the tuck position with the palms-up grip.

I can't really replicate the pain on any floor work or static stuff like that, so it led me to the conclusion that it was the tension on my elbows and triceps to negate the downward force of my body, with a non-moving, fixed shoulder. The cause of this the recently switched hand-positions, which put more strain on the now completely vertical elbows and triceps, whee there used to be side muscle it could diffuse upward towards.

I pretty much wanted to begin learning the BL towards the end of my L-sit training and before starting my front lever and back lever progressions, since that seems to be what Coach is leaning towards in his book. He states L-sit before everything, BL before Planche, and Planche at the same time as FL since they complement each other. That is my reasoning for attempting them in this order.

tl;dr I stopped for now until my body gets used to German Hangs in the new grip position, which I'll then hopefully continue my training.

Regards,

Masato

[Blairbob]

Yep, go back to doing German Hangs and 360 pulls in a palms down fashion.

FL and BL can be worked in tandem. FL isn't as difficult on the elbows because the arm is internally rotated such as doing the BL with palms up.

You don't have a lot of load on your levers at least.

Bare in mind, the first half of a 360 pull is pulling through front lever in tuck or pike fashion. Unless you start from a dead hang inlocating in which would be impressive and something most nobody really does in the beginning.