Gymnastic Question and Fighting

[MattDaniel]

Ok so while I have started to do these gymnastics moves I have gotten the basics such as a 20 sec solid l sit, front levers, HeSPUs, pseudo planche pushups, and a few more I wanted to know that if I were to stick to gymnastics training along with some recreational running usually sprinting maybe once or twice a week would I see gains in punching power and strength since I have pretty much mastered all I need for non-competition level fighting in the form of skill and endurance as well as speed.

So to put things short has anyone noticed greater punching or overall fighting prowess from just gymnastics training or should I try attempt more?

[Joshua Naterman]

Proper HSPU should be your first goal.

After that is accomplished on parallel bars or paralletes you will have the musculature you need for solid punching power. It will be even better when you master Bowers, 90 degree push ups, or whatever you want to call them. Eventually developing solid HSPU and freestanding HSPU on rings should be the final goal in terms of raw muscle.

As for that actually turning into punching power... well, that depends on how much you practice your punching. If you want power, you need to be able to flick out the punch with good alignment and a feeling as though you aren't even trying. No tension, just lightning speed.

THAT part comes from drills.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

(...) since I have pretty much mastered all I need for non-competition level fighting in the form of skill and endurance as well as speed. (...)

What does that mean MattDaniel San? :?:

[MattDaniel]

Ha well in regards to the speed aspect I can hit as fast if not faster than many feather and welterweights I encountered while I participated in a Boxing competition for the state of California and this was while I weigh in at between 170 - 180 pounds. In regards to the endurance I can still run a 5-6 minute mile as well as enough sprint speed to do a 100 meter in 14-15 seconds. And I can still hit just as hard as many heavyweight I've met while remaining both fast and enduring. The reason I have started gymnastics training is so I can increase my functionaly explosive power and strength as well as loving to do many of the exercises outlined as a kid. Sorry if my post was sort of long but just wanted everyone to know my reasons for wanting to join as well as a little about me.

[Blairbob]

For explosive power in your hips and body, barbell training is probably preferable. Cleans. Or throw a shot. KB stuff next. Elite gymnasts are very good at reactive strength but in general are not very impressive (besides amongst some elites and freaks) of generating force from a standstill. Yes you can do the gymnastics plyo drills but it's gonna take a long time developing that speed and strength.

A 100m in 14-15s isn't very fast, even for a normal joe. Sorry. Good mile time though. One of the things about sprinting and your times is you have to keep it up or it eventually diminishes. So, sprint more and it'll ramp up.

[Craig Mallett]

I'd say if you want to get better punching power, you practice understanding structure in your body when you punch. Muscular arms are absolutely not necessary for a fast hard punch. This guy, for example, could punch like a train, although wasn't that big:

[Ryan Libke]

All you need is chi. Nothing else.

[Beast]

Nice to see a fellow fighter on here.

The gymnastics training will help you build your strength to weight ratio, particularly in the upper body. However to turn the maximal strength you gain from the gymnastics to punching power you will have to do plyometrics and of course your regular boxing training.

It takes a while for one to be able to apply their new strength to a skill, to apply your new strength to a skill you have to practice the skill while gaining/having your new strength. As one poster said barbell training will be the most beneficial in terms of punching power for you...depending on your weaknesses. If your really into this gymnastics training you should consider blending the training to A) keep from taking away from your skill work and practice quality B) to teach your body to apply what you are gaining in a way that is functional for fighting and C) to keep from losing what you have already gained from your other training.

Some time ago I had started working on planche pushups. I simply performed conditioning in the morning,1:00 total time of planche leans (ALWAYS leaning forward as far as possible...almost falling on my face haha) and 3-4 pushing variations that would help me develop the strength needed after work, and did my boxing training from 6-9pm. After 4 months I was just barely able to do a KIND of planche pushup with my knees bent behind me and right now Im able to hold a planche albeit with a 90 degree bend in the arms. I found adding 3 short sessions (but doing planche leans 6 days a week) very doable alongside my other training. I highly recommend adding small focused sessions without any fluff or anything that really deviates from the goal.

Nice mile time btw, Im at around the same for 1 mile but I can manage 2 miles in 11:00 or 1.5 in just under 8.

[MattDaniel]

Ok thank you everyone for the quick and well informed answers. I just have one question left. So in the last week I tested nearly everything I could think of and now have a 11.2 sec 100m a 1130 min 2 mile a solid 25 sec l sit about 7 pseudo planche pushups 8 HeSPUs and a few more things. I know want to know what I should focus on and from how my punching has improved I really feel Ike I should focus on some strength based pylometrics since my punching speed is still far higher than my strength in contrast but I still have a pretty good strength level and want to know what i could focus on to increase my strength. So to put it short I would like to know what I should focus on to make my strength catch up to my speed as well as any pylometric exercises that are mostly strength based.

[Joshua Naterman]

Ok thank you everyone for the quick and well informed answers. I just have one question left. So in the last week I tested nearly everything I could think of and now have a 11.2 sec 100m a 1130 min 2 mile a solid 25 sec l sit about 7 pseudo planche pushups 8 HeSPUs and a few more things. I know want to know what I should focus on and from how my punching has improved I really feel Ike I should focus on some strength based pylometrics since my punching speed is still far higher than my strength in contrast but I still have a pretty good strength level and want to know what i could focus on to increase my strength. So to put it short I would like to know what I should focus on to make my strength catch up to my speed as well as any pylometric exercises that are mostly strength based.

Hollow body push ups performed very slowly. Also push ups with a plus on your elbows, with a hollow body. Also slow HeSPU.

Slow = 4-5s up , same down

super slow = 10s up, same down. Not easy. Will expose a lot of weak points. Make sure to use a metronome or a second hand, do not trust your own count no matter how good it is. You will see that time doesn't flow at the same speed when you do these... your perception will change quite a bit.

[Daniel Burnham]

Slow = 45s up , same down

I think you left out a hyphen? 4-5s would be more appropriate for strength I think.

[Joshua Naterman]

Slow = 45s up , same down

I think you left out a hyphen? 4-5s would be more appropriate for strength I think.

D'OH!!! You're right... totally meant to hyphenate!

[Beast]

From the sounds of it I'd focus on your shoulder strength and explosiveness, 8 handstand pushups is nothing to write home about...unless you weigh 300 pounds.

I believe two days of full body strength workouts a week will get you to where your looking to go. One day focusing on pure strength and the second focusing on explosiveness but with an eye towards more strength as well. On strength days stick to low reps (3-5) and 2 minutes or longer rest periods. One arm cleans and presses I found work great for shoulder strength, moreso than just doing a straight up set of presses because your shoulders do get brief rests during reps allowing you to go harder as well as cheat a bit when absolutely necessary. Following the cleans and presses up with heavy push presses are great too letting you load up the upper half of the pressing movement with more weight (food for thought: this is the level of extension you usually get when punching someone too).

During the explosive days push presses and push jerks are where its at I think. Alternate them each week (press, jerk, press, jerk) and use 70% 1RM the first two weeks, then 50% 1RM the next 2 weeks for 5 sets and 3 reps with 1 minute rests. After 2 months youll have way more pop.

So basically:

Strength:

4 sets 3 reps one dumbbell cleans and presses (88% 1RM)

4 sets 5 reps 2 dumbbell push presses (85% 1RM)

Explosive Strength:

5 sets 3 reps 2 dumbbell push presses (70% 1rm week 1, 50% 1rm week 3)

5 sets 3 reps 2 dumbbell push jerk (70% 1rm week 2, 50% 1rm week 4)

It's not a big change but theres no need to overhaul a routine just to tweak one small thing. Personally I found push presses and jerks to add alot of pop to my shoulders. After using them for about 2-3 months I went back to doing handstand pushups on my cinder blocks for extra range of motion and I had way more pop, I could have gotten some air if I wasnt concerned about breaking my neck haha.

[atxmatteo]

Ok so while I have started to do these gymnastics moves I have gotten the basics such as a 20 sec solid l sit, front levers, HeSPUs, pseudo planche pushups, and a few more I wanted to know that if I were to stick to gymnastics training along with some recreational running usually sprinting maybe once or twice a week would I see gains in punching power and strength since I have pretty much mastered all I need for non-competition level fighting in the form of skill and endurance as well as speed.

So to put things short has anyone noticed greater punching or overall fighting prowess from just gymnastics training or should I try attempt more?

Gains in punching power? Probably not. Gains in strength? Yes. You never master your skills for fighting. I trained for 3 years in boxing before I did amateur competition (granted, not always dedicated), and I have been doing competitive for 2 years now, and still learn something new all the time. It sounds like you have a pretty good base for overall fitness. I have trained with a lot of pros, and I currently train with a few. I can say that I have never trained with a boxer that practices a 100m time. Almost all of them ran the 5 mile alone, and only some even did 40 yard sprints. The MMA guys I trained with (one fought Saturday - Tim Kennedy), would work 40m sprints, 800m runs, and 4 or 5 mile runs. I'm not saying it isn't beneficial, just that I can't give you an idea of what elite athletes have for normal times. I can tell you a normative 5 mile time for that crowd is sub 26min. I think the 2 mile in 11min is a great goal, especially for an amateur. I have ran that with a couple of special ops buddies, and they do sub 11mins. To be honest, all of the amateurs I know, even those that have already won Golden Gloves comps, are not ahead of the numbers you are posting for yourself; although none of them practice any gymnastics. So many boxers are still following the fossil workout theory of only incorporating mitts, bags, jump rope, and long distance running.

Is this for MMA or boxing?

From what I read while perusing, Beast nailed it.

Back to my gymnastics and punching power, and how it relates to Beast's comments. I am in the incipient stages of training with gymnastics, and I can tell you that it has been a benison for my flexibility and my core. However, it immediately affected my punching speed negatively. How or why? Take a look at a 170lb boxer, and a 170lb gymnast both at the upper echelon of their respective fields. Their bodies are very different. One great difference is in their arm size. This is what has slowed my punches. You will add mass to your arms with ring training (at least I have experienced that very quickly). This is of course counterproductive for punching. If you are attempting to move something very quickly, and it increases in size and weight, I don't think you need a degree in physics to understand how a change in mass can influence linear dynamics. Form follows function! Form follows function! I had a professor that would literally say that once during every freaking class, but it stuck in my head and helps keep me grounded a lot of times. A gymnast's body develops that way because of the way they train. It's the same with a boxer or fighter.

If your goal is to be a better fighter, those skills should be your primary focus (ie technique, specific skills drills). Your secondary goal is to improve your power, so I think Blairbob was the one that mentioned barbell training. Explosive lifts like the hang clean, snatch, split jerk, and push press have helped me a lot. I always incorporate deadlifts, back squat, and front squat as well. You might get too tight from the bench press, but the dead bench press helps a lot with initial acceleration for your punches (especially if you have never tried it). That aside, I have added the gymnastics WOD for 3 days a week in my regimen. I follow them with 4 rounds of the double-end bag, 4 rounds of the speed bag, and 4 rounds of the jump rope (all of my rounds are 4 minutes). I then always do 10 min of neck work, 200 situps with a 25lb weight, an ab circuit of 1,000 reps that are performed non-stop, with constant tension, and an emphasis on quick contractions (I can send you a long explanation on the science behind that and its relationship to fighting); and then ab hardening with a med ball or stick. Your body will be catabolic midway through this workout, and you need to be taking some sort of healthy calories in. Also, this took me years to build up to, so I'm not saying you should jump right into it. You need to ramp up, and listen to your body. If you are sore the next day, scale back on the routine. The isometric contractions from gymnastics have been great. I always start my workouts with sets of 2 minute planks and side planks, followed by GHD situps, back extensions and rotational plyometrics such as theraband uppercuts and kettlebell halos. The gymnastics workout will really test your core during the routine. I still find it necessary to work on ab conditioning separately though. You still need to practice skills on this day, but at a much earlier or later time (assuming you are very serious with your intentions in competitive fighting). On the other days, train your plyometrics thoroughly, as well as those other lifts. I work on heavy bag training on a different day due to the style of training gymnastics employs. I diverge from most other boxers by performing sprints 2 days a week, and usually only run one day (I have terrible knees, and cycle and row 3 days a week instead - much like my boy Sergio Martinez who will be KO'ing Chavez soon). Sparring is really the best thing you can do to improve your boxing skill. It's easy to hit and time a bag, but a different world with a moving opponent that is hitting you back! James Toney is famous for training almost exclusively with sparring (try to avoid the associative disorder from blunt force trauma that he exhibits). Mastering your technique is by far the most important. To put it in perspective, in the past year, I have trained with several pro boxers; I was stronger than each one of them on all of the lifts that we performed, but did not punch anywhere near their power. I have had better power than amateurs, but pros have much more efficient neuromuscular facilitation and body dynamics that enables them to generate much more power: meaning, practice, practice, practice.

[Blairbob]

To sum, a lot of power is genetics limited. With training, we can change muscle fiber types to a degree and we can train to become very efficient at reaction movements or throwing a kick or a punch. Fortunately fighting isn't only about how fast you are but how can well you can dodge, block, counter and of course...NOT TELEGRAPH AN ATTACK! No "tells". And how much abuse you can take besides be willing to dish out. Ya gotta be willing to hurt people and be ok with that.

So you gotta do both. Ya gotta practice and train your body.

Your general gymnastics training will develop your brute strength to a degree. Especially when it comes to core and upper body strength. With some basic tumbling, it will help with body awareness and coordination. Show me a nice cartwheel ( does not need to toes pointed all gymnasticky ) that shows good rhythm and flow and that will go a long way. It'll help with mobility especially if you do a lot of the stretching stuff which shares a familial resemblance to yoga at times.

However, it just won't do jack for you in the lower body at anything but a snail's pace. you aren't tumbling and you're not vaulting and you're not going to learn how to do anything into the intermediate without some dedicated time and resouces. You'd be much better off just training how to punch and kick since it's all dependent on hips and weight shift and generating power and moving it through your spine towards your extremities.

Train how to punch and kick. assist it by developing your strength such as pressing, core stuff and deadlifts and squats. then work quick movements such as KB or BB lifts such as the clean, snatch or jerk. you don't really need to work the full versions (KB versions really aren't but don't employ enough load IMO)

For example, T&F throwers get faster by just throwing the hammer and shot and discus a lot after solidifying their technique. Javelin, I guess but I suspect there is more technique in that. Besides that, they get strong like bull. Combine those and voila.

[Rik de Kort]

Javelin, I guess but I suspect there is more technique in that.

Correct. A stronger guy with bad technique won't get the javelin as far as a weaker guy with great technique. There's this dude at my atlethics club who constantly throws as far as or further than I, even though I easily beat him at shot put.

[Joshua Naterman]

A very important thing to learn from atxmatteo's experience is that your body learns to do what you do the most.

If ALL you do with your upper body is Gymnastic Strength Training™ the way we do it here, you will experience a speed loss. If you don't read any further, the single take home is this: You NEED to balance the strength work with speed work. Not just punching speed, but high speed, rapid-fire push ups and same for rows (best done with bands, honestly). If you practice being fast, you will be fast, but only if you do not allow slow training to dominate your physical preparation.

It is very important for you to do specific speed work as well, since virtually everything we do with combined shoulder and elbow flexion and extension here is by nature a controlled movement with a non-explosive tempo, especially horizontally unless you are doing the plyo push up variations like wheels.

Now, tumbling is highly explosive but chances are that you are not tumbling and we are currently not dealing with much of any upper body explosive work aside from clapping pull up variations and plyo push ups here as a result, and most people here do not practice those regularly.

For the hand speed, you are going to have to build in speed training and relaxation training (to keep the punches super loose so that you aren't applying the brakes with the antagonistic muscles) to maintain it, and not do quite as much volume with the slower work, but there may still be a slight reduction in hand speed compared to absolute max.

If you notice this happening, don't worry: Just know that once you are about 4 weeks out from a fight you need to reduce the volume of the slow work and increase the volume of the speed and relaxation work so that you become extremely smooth and remove the slow training. This is a very specialized form of peaking for boxing, and the main thing you will change is your tempo. You will do almost everything explosively, perhaps getting creative when it comes to some of the pulls.

I would keep the FSP at all times.

I would normally say 8-10 weeks of progressive transitioning over to the power and speed work, but until you're a pro who is on TV you will be fighting too often for that to be practical.

As has been said, fighting is much more of a skill sport than a pure power sport, and a very slight reduction in hand speed will not make you a crappier fighter.

The single best thing you can do is to make SURE you are always doing specific work to keep your punches loose. If you do that, strength training will not slow you down... it is all about teaching your body to use what you have the way you need it to be used.

[MattDaniel]

Thank you for all the answers everyone and from all of them I have decided that I am going to focus on pure strength right now since my speed is more than adequate. In regards to the running part I have already been able to run up to 6 miles for track in about hour and fifteen and my form is pretty good in my opinion. I regularly practice my punching and for my size(5'5 and 165 my triceps are already fairly large and strong but my biceps are severely lagging behind so I think extra size will not matter. I can easily do many different pylometric exercises such as clap pushups and pylo pullups but from what I have noticed while many say I hit hard I think it is due to my speed and not my strength. I'm good enough already at both the relaxing and the tightening of my arm when punching so that is taken care of. So can anyone post a list of exercises to increase my pure strength since my speed is good enough. Please take note that I am still relatively young( just turned 16) and have to deal with 6 hours of school and 8 for work so I have at best 3 hours of free time a day and can only eat whatever we can afford so it is usually unhealthy. Rice or something like fried vegetables or something salty so my nutrition and time for recovery will not be much usually 4 to 5 hours while sleeping.

[Blairbob]

Rice, eggs, good milk, veggies. Chicken is pretty darn cheap at the market. Like a buck or two per pound. I've been thinking about buying whole chickens since they are a dollar a pound. Then again, I might have to eat an entire one a day.

Pure Strength?

HSPU, Deadlifts, L-sit. Pullups and the ring levers.