Additional exercise - And you thought I wouldn't ask :-)

[blueyes]

I know... I know... other people have already asked this question but please let me ask anyway and see if I can get a more concrete answer.

So, what kinds of exercises can I do for increasing muscle size quicker than waiting for their functional development doing gymnastics?

It would take years to get the size advanced gymnasts have and to be honest I don't want to wait that long. So, what kinds of exercises could (should?) I do that would not hinder my progress doing gymnastics but would get me the advanced gymnast size I want in the shortest amount of time possible?

Please note that I will be starting martial arts in the near future and would like a solid foundation for that as well.

And finally, how would such an exercise plan look like when it's combined with gymnastics? (I can work out pretty much any day for 2 hours if I wanted to, but would prefer the Mo, Tue, Thu, Fri schedule for no more than an hour and a half, with everything included.

I already ordered Coach Sommer's $144 package with book, ring and videos and I can hang the rings on my Soloflex. That's where I can do my hanging exercises although I can not pass between the two rings freely because it will hang on the bar.

I'm also debating on whether I should be getting Pavel's ab book from DragonDoor and do those exercises to develop my abs.

And I also have the Perfect Pushup handles which I feel really good about.

[rambo5501]

I don't think it was necessary to make 5 threads...

[blueyes]

Maybe so, but when I combined topics into a lengthy thread in other boards people felt that I should have broken it up because it was too long.

[Mark Weaver]

You won't use your perfect pushup handles anymore after you've tried a few different pushup variations on the rings. Especially when you've tried tucked planche pushups.

[Blairbob]

Using the search function you can find a few threads that goes over the basics. In fact, I've posted on this repeatedly.

If you want size, you will have to focus your program on hypertrophy. That means lots of sets and reps at a decreased load and intensity. You are also going to have to eat lots of protein.

Since you're not going to deadlift or squat and want to get big, look into plyometrics as a way to get that intensity. Box jumps, height drops, working pistols and glute ham. Probably working lots of squatting.

Maybe program some head bridging or headstands. I know Matt Furey includes the HeS in his program.

[blueyes]

Uhhhm blairbob... I said I don't want to get BIG. I just want to get bigger sooner, to fet to that advanced gymnast look without working on it for years, which is how they get their look but without the hypertrophy which they carefully avoid. From what I can tell that is why it's taking so long, because they train for skill and function first and the form follows

Considering the fact that just in two months I went from having no arms or chest to speak of to having some size and definition that's enough to turn heads I'd say doing gymnastics mostly and some supplemental training should do the trick in a few months. And that's enough for me to start with. Once I have a good look and size I can take my time getting it refined and developed.

As for the workout plan... yes I saw the threads but I didn't see one that said "if you want to train for gymnast skill and strength AND for size you should do this warm up, these gymnastics exercises, and these other exercises for mass/size on these days for so many reps and sets to start with. Then you should add these other things as you progress."

I know that you have to switch it up eventually because your muscles get used to the same things over and over and you don't develop, but if there would be a plan laid out for something like that that would be a great help guys.

I mean I'm sure that a complete beginner has a certain set of skills and level of strength that they need to gain before they can attempt to do stuff and that is what I'm looking for, laid out in a plan WITH the addition of the exercises for size gain and when to do them and for how many reps and sets.

[George Launchbury]

The only way to get that advanced gymnast look, is to have the training and conditioning under your belt that an advanced gymnast has. This is why the look is so unique amongst athletes. The size is only part of it - there is also the posture, tone, density etc. The training protocols for size and strength are different enough that you'll be hindering both if you attempt to do it all at the same time. Therefore you might want to think about which you want to make gains in first, and plan accordingly.

Size

If you want to get bigger more quickly, then you need to employ some bodybuilding methodology. I'm not suggesting you want to look like one of the stereotypical 'roid-ridden monsters, but theirs is the art of building aesthetic muscle as quickly as possible. To that end, Blairbob's advice is on the money. Not being pedantic (well, a little) but getting BIG is the same as getting bigger ...you just do it for longer. Note that this kind of size is mainly about sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - increasing the sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cells.

Strength

Want to get stronger? The training protocols are very different. You're going to have to work fewer reps, at a higher intensity, with longer rests. This focusses partly on myofibrillar hypertrophy, which is an increase in the size of the muscle fibres, and an increase in neural input to the muscles, firing more motor units.

Gymnasts don't specifically avoid getting bigger, it's just that the training they predominantly do to improve their performance is not geared toward unnecessary size gains. They need to be strong not big, even though getting stronger ultimately involves getting bigger. Not going out of your way to gain mass is quite different to avoiding it, in case anyone was getting a little confused your explanation.

Food for thought.

George.

[blueyes]

Well George I have to admit that your answer is very thorough and I can't say that I don't agree with it or that I did not know all of that. And thank you BTW.

I guess I didn't phrase myself properly then.

What I should have said/asked was that now I know what gains are possible for me doing exercises for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

Would I be able to get a relatively decent amount of size gain (albeit a bit slower) training gymnastic style and working for myofibrillar hypertrophy in the short term?

Because as long as I'm making size gains along with strength gains I'll be happy. I do not want to lose what little I gained or not gain at all (or gain very little) and just get stronger.

FYI - I gained all that size with body weight exercise doing pushups and using a rubber strap for everything else, like bis, tris and back. I DID do some exercises with the Soloflex but only a couple. Granted, I went for failure each time.

I think this should be more clear... Yeah, that's it.

[George Launchbury]

You would see gains as you go along, especially as you are starting out, and they would be more 'permanent' ...bodybuilding style 'fast' gains are pretty quickly lost if you lay off the training for a while.

George.

[Nick]

In my opinion, if you're doing gymnastics training solely for the aesthetics, your missing the point and going to be disappointed. If all you want is myofibrillar hypertrophy, you would likely get faster results lifting weights - heavier weight, low reps.

Also, I just wanted to mention that your tone in a few of your posts has seemed somewhat rude and abrupt. Please remember to be respectful, as that's the best way to get the help you desire.

[blueyes]

Nick,

I don't just want size, I also want the skill and strength. And that is what I came here for.

As for my tone... I doubt that you can judge my tone from written words and I can honestly say that I don't believe that I was disrespectful. I'm not that kind of person. If you think that I was, I'm sorry you got it wrong. I think you mistaken being direct and to the point with being disrespectful.

Trust me, I know when I'm being disrespectful and you will definitely know if (when?) I am.

And I mean no disrespect... Really

[Nick]

Glad to hear that, blueyes.

I appreciate your clarification. It is hard to completely understand each other in a format like this. But one thing you'll find, as I know I have, is that this forum is much nicer, friendlier, and more respectful than others. I just want to make sure we don't lose that environment here.

To further address your question, I don't really see a way to expedite the process of achieving the look of an advanced gymnast. I wouldn't say that they necessarily do anything special to avoid excessive hypertrophy - except perhaps through lower caloric intake - it's more that gymnastics-style training isn't especially suited for rapid gains in hypertrophy. Hope that helps.

[Blairbob]

If you want any skill and strength go do those progressions I reccomended or follow Coach's is in his book when it hits.

[blueyes]

No problem Nick.

And to just clarify even further...lol... I guess what I'm really looking for is not losing what I gained so far and as long as I'm growing in size and strength and skill I'll be fine with it.

Now that should do it...

[Arch]

I come from an American football/weightlifting/bodybuilding/martial-arts background, and definitely have some vain motives for my training... I'm also looking to train with MAXIMAL EFFICIENCY (which is what I think you're getting at) but I think we may be running into a wall with several divergent goals. I originally intended to work gymnastic training 1.5hrs 2x/wk, weights 3x/wk (pull, push, legs), and 1 30min HIIT session/wk, hoping I could develop strength, size, flexibility, tone, kinesthetic awareness, and maximize my energy-utilization systems (ATP, glycolytic, and aerobic). Perhaps that was too ambitious, because I am pretty worn out from just the gymnastics :roll: I've been reading some of the moderator's posts (Ido Portal), and they lean toward periodization... I'm not quite sure how LONG the optimal lengths for periodization are, because I'm too familiar with the plateau phenomenon from high-school weightlifting... ANYWAY, I understand your frustration with trying to get "the look" as quickly as possible, and still maximize your skills. I'm not sure how much guidance anyone can give you individually though; I think the theories apply best to large cohorts, and you have to experiment to find what works best for you. Probably a long and disappointing answer to your question, but I fear it may be true. If anyone wants to chime in on periodization, I'd love to hear more ideas!

[G00SE]

As a martial artist/ trickster and personal trainer I think the best thing to do is to train for function- Gymnasts do not train in order to look a certain way. Their goal is learn the incredible techniques and do them well. It just so happens that their bodies have to adapt tremendously because of all the stress.

The same can be said of other high caliber athletes-they train to increase their athletic performance to do the best in their respective sport and end up with impressive physiques.

dont get too focused on looking a certain way, just train hard to increase your athletic performance, eat well, and your physique will transform into what you are looking for. my physique increased dramatically when i focused more on increasing my overall skill and used functional exercises instead of using a bodybuilding type program

look at it this way, just about all elite athletes in physically demanding sports such as gymnastics, football, olympic weightlifting, etc can perform better than almost everyone else in the world have great physiques, however not everyone with impressive physiques have the ability to to perform at high levels.

[griffdrc]

the research that i've read suggests that:

strength training = 3-5 reps

hypertrophy training = 8-12 reps

strenth training = longer rest ~ 90 seconds rest

hypertrophy training = shorter rest ~ 30-45 seconds

movements utilizing large muscle groups are more effective for strength & hypertrophy

higher intensity = better results

training to failure = bad (too much strain on the body)

maxing = bad (too much strain on the body)

high rep/weight negatives = bad (too much strain on the body)

passive streching before exercise may increase your chance of injury by 30%

dynamic exercise is recomended before exercise

passive streching is suggested to be done after training (if done at all)

DOMS is not related to lactic acid build-up

DOMS is attributed to damaged cross bridges in the muscle (still some debate)

more negatives (eccentric movements) = more DOMS

muscle soreness does not neccassarily equal gains in strength or mass

(it just means that you are sore)

the only two supplements prooven to be effective are protien and creatine

there is debate to the timing, dosage, and type that is best

you do not need to consume mass quanties of protein

excess aminos (protein) are converted to urea in the liver

(your body has a threshold level that is benifical in a serving... i've heard it is around 30-40g but can vary in the individual)

the suggested values differs but i've heard that the avergae persons needs 0.8grams of protein per kilo per day

it is more efficient to lose weight through diet than exercise but exercise is needed

i know some of this has already been stated but maybe this helps to make it more clear... this is very simplified... don't crucify me for it... the amount of information know about human performance related to resistance training is surprisingly little

[Coach Sommer]

passive streching before exercise may increase your chance of injury by 30%

dynamic exercise is recomended before exercise

passive streching is suggested to be done after training (if done at all)

There is no question that dynamic stretching should be the bulk of the warmup prior to working out, however the above % of potential injury assigned to passive stretching before a workout is completely erroneous. Passive stretching is an essential component of any joint prehab/active flexibility program. The key is implementing it correctly.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[griffdrc]

the percentage was found in a study... it looked at the injury rate of passive stretching before downhill skiing versus no passive stretching before downhill skiing... the group that passively stretched had a ~30% greater chance of injury... this is a sport specific example and my not apply to other activities... the group may not have passively stretched in the same manner as you deem correct... there could have been a sampling bias based on the activity and group size... there is debate about many aspects regarding exercise and strength training... this is one of them...

[Coach Sommer]

Generalization can and should be done, there are athletic preparations that are applicable across a wide range of athletic endeavors. The key is sifting and deciding which components are truly applicable to a specific sport. To be effective at skiing will require the ability to hold the body in a relatively stable and static position, while gymnastics requires a variety of different movements through a much great range of motion. Sport specifity is always an issue to be considered when designing a training program.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Saito]

@ the OP, you're just trying to find a short-cut to success in something that has no short-cuts. Hard work and dedication is all there is to it.

[Kamali Downey]

George or Coach S,

(Getting back on topic, since I don't have the book yet)

1.)Regarding sets and reps, are you saying gymnasts do NO high rep work whatsoever?

2.) should we mainly keep our sets in the 5-6 reps range.....instead of normally 8-10 like traditional hypertrophy work?

for exericses like

pistols

natural glute ham raises/bw leg curl

bulgarian ring dips

hspu

cross pulls

pullups

chinups

tucked lever rows

ring flies

etc. etc.

In other words, should most exercises be worked with fewer reps and greater sets? how many sets? Something like 5-6 sets of 5-6 reps sound right?

[Saito]

George or Coach S,

(Getting back on topic, since I don't have the book yet)

1.)Regarding sets and reps, are you saying gymnasts do NO high rep work whatsoever?

2.) should we mainly keep our sets in the 5-6 reps range.....instead of normally 8-10 like traditional hypertrophy work?

for exericses like

pistols

natural glute ham raises/bw leg curl

bulgarian ring dips

hspu

cross pulls

pullups

chinups

tucked lever rows

ring flies

etc. etc.

In other words, should most exercises be worked with fewer reps and greater sets? how many sets? Something like 5-6 sets of 5-6 reps sound right?

Of all the exercises you mentioned, should you do them weighted? because 6 pullups is cake! what the heck are you gonna get from just 6 pulls?

[Kamali Downey]

George or Coach S,

(Getting back on topic, since I don't have the book yet)

1.)Regarding sets and reps, are you saying gymnasts do NO high rep work whatsoever?

2.) should we mainly keep our sets in the 5-6 reps range.....instead of normally 8-10 like traditional hypertrophy work?

for exericses like

pistols

natural glute ham raises/bw leg curl

bulgarian ring dips

hspu

cross pulls

pullups

chinups

tucked lever rows

ring flies

etc. etc.

In other words, should most exercises be worked with fewer reps and greater sets? how many sets? Something like 5-6 sets of 5-6 reps sound right?

Of all the exercises you mentioned, should you do them weighted? because 6 pullups is cake! what the heck are you gonna get from just 6 pulls?

No doubt. You are right.

But like Coach Sommer and others are saying here, once you master a move, you go on to the next progression.

I'm working up to strict one arm chins and pullups. Progressing along nicely...... I'm currently doing the mixed grip kiss your wrist chins and pullups with a 10 second negative.

Once I master that, I will add the towel or rope on one side and then move the hand lower and lower, etc. until I am ready to do strict one arm negatives (also called one arm come downs)