Poliquin and stretching

[Ivan Pellejero]

Hi guys, the other day while looking for information on stretches I came arround with the idea of seeing what does Charles Poliquin has to say about, and I found this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odj5Xianyks . In the video he states that if one is pursuing flexibility seriously then it should perform 1 hour of stretching per day, 6 days a week, for about 12 weeks, starting with PNF and then static passive stretching to interiorize the gains. But this is not what it says in the article I found in here http://agt.degreesofclarity.com/stretching/ and http://www.trickstutorials.com/index.ph ... ntent/flx3 , both of these from the forum, some say PNF shouldn't be performed everyday and that it isn't necessary to do that much. What do you think about this?

[Scott Malin]

Part of being an expert is understanding areas where you are not an expert. Poliquin is not one I would consider an expert in the are of flexibility training. I highly recommend the work of forum member Kit Laughlin. Personally, his approaches have shown me the greatest permanent gains because it continually improves and targets the neurological and physical component. I also cannot recall anywhere where the Fredricks recommended this particular protocol Charles suggests; and as Coach and Kit have both stated, it's absurd to think that 12 weeks is all that is needed to reach the ideal flexibility (that of an infant/toddler).

[Julian Aldag]

I dont think he is necessarily incorrect, but just that people are misinterpreting what Poliquin's 'Optimal Flexibility" is.

For me, as an acrobat, optimal means Bridge walk overs, Skin cats etc. Basically what most people (including mainstream athletes) would consider "extreme range of motion".

I assume that when Poliquin is referring to Optimal flexibilty, it is for things like: Shoulder and Thoracic flexibility/mobility for overhead presses and Hip mobility for proper squat and lunge techniques. NOT 12 weeks to 3 way splits, Full ROM skin cats and Bridge Walk overs...

[Cole Dano]

Is there one ideal strength training method? Of course not, neither is there any such thing as an ideal flexibility system.

As much as I think CP has started to loose the plot of late, he has an interesting concept here, one that I've seen work and that's the idea of a 'consolidation phase'. I might be a lone shark on this, but I really think static stretching has been over vilified. It has a place, and this is an interesting take on how to incorporate it.

Of course if you were to set up a 12 week cycle you would need to be realistic in your goals.

[Scott Malin]

I wouldn't put the flexibility of most acrobats as being that extreme. For individuals who have managed to keep their childhood flexibility, there are no inherent health problems to that ability. I'd argue it's quite the opposite as the mark of biological aging is a given structure stiffening. My experience has been that those who kept the flexibility had far healthier bodies as they went through puberty and entered adulthood. This weekend, we had an awesome example of a guy who never lost his flexibility because he considered putting his legs behind his head a cool party trick as a kid. Adding strength to that makes a powerful combination.

I'm still not certain I'm sold on Charle's method and the return on investment for the amount of time put in. Maybe I'm totally and off and it works incredibly, but it seems much more time efficient to remap the homunculus until the limitations on physical structure are reached; and then to place the appropriate mechanical load on the tissues to deal with myofasica and adhesions. More volume and intensity only are better if the physical structure can handle it.

[Ivan Pellejero]

Ok cool, now, should we perform PNF everyday or it is too much? maybe perform it on non working days and on working days do only passive.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

I am about to get full front splits and mixed splits and I have just started using the PNF stuff from Pavel's "Relax into Stretch". I can't recommend it enough.

[Cole Dano]

@ Cory -

I'm not advocating CP's method, or knocking it either. I think the points you bring out are what should be part of any flexibility programing, and they could just as well fit into CPs. What I like about CP's concept is adding a consolidation phase by using passive stretching. More on this later in the post.

My take on PNF. As I've said in other posts. in yoga that term isn't used but it (or something very similar) is very commonly done. In other words, when holding yoga asana's there is a tension phase. For example in paschimottanasana (i.e. pike stretch) the instruction is to press the legs into the floor. The usual yoga explanation of why this works is reciprocal inhibition.

In 'real' life if you are holding the stretch for a while, one sort of stumbles on what is commonly called PNF, just because it's hard to hold that tension, one will naturally start to go from tensioned to relaxed, teacher yells at you to tense and you tense again. If you're perceptive, you also notice it feels like you're a little bit deeper than before. Then you start to naturally train this way, if you are doing long holds. To me it feels like when I go into the relaxed phase, I'm fitting myself into my skin.

Personally I prefer this natural type of PNF to doing it to strict times, it just requires tune into the feedback system.

As for what is physiologically going on in stretching, I'm not confident in the whole myofascial idea at this point. It sounds good, but I don't think we have any evidence, even adhesions are somewhat unclear. At this stage I don't like to tell people what's going on, simply because I've seen so many 'explanations' come and go over the years. We are still learning, I'm ok with that.

The one thing I'm confident of is the good ole homunculus and the importance of some amount of self awareness / reflection.

I'm glad someone people outside of yoga listen to, like Pavel, came up with Relax into Stretch. It's exactly what i'd already been doing for twenty years and is/was commonly taught in yoga. It's also why I'm ok with also doing pure passive stretching - again with awareness. In yoga it's become fashionable to call this restorative - if it's done with moderate stretch. There is also Yin Yoga, which I strongly dislike, which is done with a high degree of tension, particularly on a joint. Along with the Yin Yoga is some nonsense about stretching fascia. Sorry I'm not a believer. But the moderate tension long hold restorative work is very interesting. Rather than get on a soap box, I'd just say give it a try sometime you will see your body naturally 'melt' over time as long as you set up in a way that the mind doesn't see as a threat, so it can relax.

I really like your point about getting to your natural limits first then adding more tension. This is the one danger of any PNF or assisted system. If one knows their limits it's not a problem but if they are too aggressive and go beyond there is great potential for injury. I'm just not sure we know the mechanism of why the flexibility increases.

Should one make a twelve week program or this or that, again I think it's going to depend on one's personality as much as anything. Since I learned via yoga, there was simply no such thinking, it was more a progression in skill with various asanas.

The two systems I spent the most time in were Iyengar and Ashtanga. Iyengar will tend to cycle. One day a week one type of stretch is emphasized. With some waviness in intensity and at least once a week pure passive. (This is how I was taught, things might have changed over the years)

Ashtanga, is sort of the CrossFit of yoga. No cycling, 100% every session moving through progressively more difficult sequences. Hold times are short but there are many asanas. I'm one of the few who got though the fourth series. When that happens there actually is a weekly cycle because you do a different series on a given day of the week. At that point the first and second series were very easy, third was interesting and fourth more difficult. Then it actually made sense, but I feel bad for the majority of people doing Ashtanga who at best get somewhere in the second series and are stuck in a loop. It's just not natural for many many years. It's fine for a few years though and maybe even good if that's your thing.