First post--I need help getting started correctly.

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

Hi--This is my first post here--I joined GB back in April. I have been doing bodyweight exercises for about 1.5 months, and was doing weight training for about 2.5 months before that after a lengthy layoff. I have always admired the physical excellence seen in top gymnasts, and decided recently to switch to bodyweight training/gymnastics for fitness. I also do one of either running/cycling/hiking on non workout days.

As of yesterday I have a wrist injury :| which is probably caused by doing too much too soon, and so I need some advice. I will outline my last two workouts to give an idea of what I am doing at this point. For the past two weeks I have divided my workout into either pushing or pulling exercises. The equipment I have is as follows: Pullup bar, dip station, gymnastics rings (1 1/2 inch wooden), weight bench, weight plates, dumb bells, and bar bells. I workout every second day.

My current workout regimen: I begin by doing the beginner FSP--plank, reverse plank, hollow hold, arch hold, parallel bar support, and chin up grip dead hang--all for 60s which I can manage. I repeat this 3 times. Next I do 3 repeats of the following--10 burpees, 20 jumping jacks, 20 high knees, 10 jump squats, and 20 incline sit ups. This entire routine takes about 30 minutes.

Next I do fundamental body weight exercises. My last pulling workout (May 12) was as follows:

Pullups to failure x 3 sets

chinups to failure x 3 sets

body curls on dip bars to failure x 4 sets

inverted rows on rings with feet elevated--4 sets

Front lever tuck held as long as possible x 8

My last pressing workout (May 14) was as follows--after the 30 minute warmup routine as above I did the following:

1.) HS negatives-- I did 5 sets, each set including jumping into a HS against the wall and then lowering under control (4-5 seconds) x 5. So, in all the 5 HS sets involved jumping into the HS 25 times total. (hope that's clear)

2.) HSPU with my feet on a chair--3x7-8 reps

3.) Regular dips--3x10 reps

4.)Dips leaning forward as far as I could--3 x reps to failure

5.) PU on rings with feet elevated and hands at hips--3 x reps to failure

6.)Diamond pushups--3 x reps to failure

After this I tried doing L-sit to tuck planche but was too fatigued so did not continue.

Re my doing some sets to failure--I am still figuring this all out, but had this idea recently. For better progress I may try these exercises as I once did weight training, i.e. set a target of 3 sets x 7 reps, and when this can be managed add weight with weight plates or a weight vest, and then aim once again for 3x7 with the added resistance.

During the above Pressing workout (May 14) I experienced no discomfort, and for the remainder of the day felt fine. On the morning of the 15th I awoke with a VERY sore wrist. The pain is mainly on the outside (pinky side) and travels down the Ulna with wrist rotation. It is bad enough that I am cancelling today's workout, and expect I may be out of commission for another week or two at least. I have been using cold/heat, plus a little stretching, and compression (elastic bandage) to treat it. I suspect it may tendon or ligament strain/damage. I also suspect that the HS negatives were likely the cause. Any comment on these symptoms, and suggestions as to treatment and usual recovery time would be appreciated.

Based on the above workouts, I need some advice on what I am leaving out, what I might be doing wrong, and how to avoid any further injuries. One area of uncertainty for me is how to incorporate the beginning progressions for advanced exercises that I am capable of into my fundamental body weight exercises routine. So far I have been working on L-sit to tuck planche, assisted MU negatives, tucked FL and BL, HSPU negatives, and Skin the cat (cannot hold a German hang). To some extent I have managed to incorporate these into my workouts. However, if they are left to the end then I am too fatigued. Should some of my exercises be left out to make room for these beginning progressions? In what order should they be included? These are some of the things I am trying to sort out. I have checked out the WOD a few times and find it often involves moves that are beyond my present strength/ability (I think one recent WOD included muscle ups which are a ways off for me yet :? ). Re injuries: I did have a 3rd degree shoulder separation 10 years ago, (no surgery) but it has not bothered me at all. I really very much want to make my best effort over time to master the advanced versions of the movements I mentioned above--I realize this will take a lot of work and considerable time. I am in no hurry--i.e. am willing to expect a couple of years or more to accomplish this (if some of them do not prove beyond my ability). Thanks in advance for any advice in getting me on the right track. I very much appreciate the resource this site provides in the pursuit of my fitness goals.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

Hi DiGiTaLdAzE, welcome to the forums

How old are you, and what are your training history, experience & level of fitness outside of the 2.5 months weight lifting that you mention?

Can you hold all prerequisites for 60 seconds?

Generally, sets to failure or holds "as long as possible" are not encouraged; they are notorious for exhausting the CNS and lead to injury.

what are your goals?

Have you read the stickies in the getting started board?

Have you got the book?

Fred

[Rik de Kort]

You're doing way, way too much. A good routine could look something like:

Warmup: pre-FSP's and something to get the blood flowing. Keep it short and simple. If you can do everything 3x60s one after the other you should bring it down to 1x60s. Make sure your form is correct.

FSP's: You can't hold a German Hang, so you shouldn't work on back lever and front lever yet (3x30s GH is a prerequisite for that), so you'll want to work german hang (with toe assist if needed) and L-sit (prerequisite for planche). That's it. The protocol for your FSP times is to take your max hold time (test this once), divide that by two and then do sets of that length until you accumulate 60s total time. You do this over a Steady State Cycle (8-12 weeks with the same sets and reps) and then test your max again.

FBE's: Pick a horizontal pull (rowing), a vertical pull (pullups), a horizontal push (pushup variation) and a vertical push (HSPU). I like alternating pushes and pulls and ending with something for legs (single-leg squats). Work a variation if you can do 3x3 with picture perfect form, otherwise go down in the progression. Add reps until you hit something around 3x8-10. You'll have a pretty good idea whether or not you'll be able to do at least 3x3 off the next variation, so if you can, do that. Otherwise you can maybe add a bit of weight to make your current progression harder. NEVER WORK TO FAILURE. Go close, but don't go there. Stop when you have 1-2 reps left in the tank. Failure is very hard on the CNS.

In case you haven't, read the stickies in the Getting Started forum (read them, not skim over them) and get the book.

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

Thanks for the replies--I will answer them in the order they were posted. Hi Fred--I have already made your acquaintance in what you referred to as 'the old fart's thread'--ha ha. I will be 58 in August--I suspect that will make me seem a waaaay old for gymnastics to many--to me it is not an issue. I am 5' 8" at a weight somewhere between 155 and 160 ( I don't own a scale). I have always lived an active lifestyle, and have actually ramped things up a fair bit over the past several years. Favorite activities are cycling (road and mountain), running, hiking, and weight training. Previous to starting lifting again this past winter I last lifted for almost one year in 2010. I run every winter for several months, and then transition to hiking/cycling in the spring. I believe my fitness level is quite good--on my last physical my doctor said I had the blood pressure of an 18 year old. But staying fit is an ongoing pursuit with always much room for improvement. I set myself the following goal in January of this year--to achieve the highest fitness level I can reach by the age of 60. I became interested in body weight training/gymnastics this winter, and decided to switch to that approach along with aerobics in pursuit of this goal.

I can hold the prerequisite FSP--plank, reverse plank, hollow hold, arch hold, parallel bar support, and chin up dead hang for 60s each repeated 3 times. During weight training in the past I usually did some sets to failure--usually just the last set of three for a given exercise. I am aware that coach Sommer discourages this practice. I have read some of the 'stickies' in the getting started section, and yes I do have BTGB book.

So, my goals are fitness related--specifically I would like to build the strength required to do such moves as Muscle up, front and back lever, planche, free standing HSPU, and others. Sounds overly ambitious perhaps? Whatever level I reach I know without doubt that through the effort I will make significant strength gains. Once again--I do NOT see my age as a deterrent in any way. My main goals are to build significant functional strength over what I now possess, and in the process develop my own gymnastics routine that I can use for fitness and enjoyment.

I will checking out your site as martial arts has always been of interest to me. Many years ago I placed second in a Judo tournament in my weight class. As I live in a rather remote location, I am unable to pursue this interest now.

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Rik--Thanks for your comments. My warmup exercises (burpees, etc.) take about 10 minutes. Three repeats of the FSP mentioned above takes about 20 minutes--I can do 3 repeats of all six for 60s with very little rest (5-10 seconds) between them. Re form--I am trying to use strict form, but because I am working out alone it is hard to know if my form is ideal. I did wonder on hollow hold how much of the spine should be in contact with the floor, as it is possible to have only a few inches to much more touching the floor--the less contact the harder the hold becomes.

Re German Hang--I was actually nervous to try holding it as I had a 3rd degree AC (shoulder) separation 10 years ago from a mountain bike crash. I just tried it again, and felt no discomfort in my shoulder, but considerable strain in my elbow joints--particularly the right side which I broke about 15 years back (another cycling mishap :shock: ). Generally speaking, I have no issues with these injuries now. I will get to work on the German Hang with assist initially. You said 3x30s--what is the rest interval between each hold?

Based on your comments, I can reduce the beginner FSP to one repeat of 60s each as a part of my warm up routine. My plan would be to then do the following--Start replacing the other two discarded cycles of the beginner FSP with HS holds, Lsit to tuck planche, work on the Germaan hang, and eventually also F and B lever progression(s), and Muscle Up assisted negatives (that's what I am able to handle re MU at this point--am using false grip). I would not plan to do all of those on the same day, but would devise some kind of split. Lsit, and tuck planche seem to be more of a pushing hold whereas levers are more a pulling hold--so I could do push type holds on days I do Push exercises, and pressing holds on days I do pressing exercises. Do you strongly feel dividing up workouts into only pushing or pulling moves is a less than ideal approach? I would actually plan to change up my approach every few weeks or so in this regard in order to keep things from getting stale. Any other progressions I should be considering at this point?

Also, you feel that my workload is too great. In my last pulling workout after warmup I did 20 sets total of body weight exercises--this was actually about 5 more than usual. You mention picking 5 different exercises/workout--how many sets each total are you doing? And, how many progressions such as levers, etc. are you including with that?

BTW, besides Vertical, and horizontal pushing/pulling, what about downward pushing as seen in various dip variations , and downward pulling with body curls. I have been including these exercises in my workouts. I do these exercises on dip bars which I also use for Lsit/tuck planche (I would not say I have a good tuck planche, but it is coming along), and parallel bar static hold. Body curls are the only downward pulling body weight exercise I am aware of, and can be seen at 1:30 of the following video.The poster of this video advised 3 workouts a week as follows--Monday--overhead pushing and pulling, Wednesday--forward pushing and pulling, and Friday--downward pushing and pulling.

Lastly, re working to failure. This seems to be a preferred method with some weight trainers to build strength/size. I used to use it as follows: select a weight I can lift comfortably for 7 reps on a first set, maybe 6-7 (to failure) on a second set, and 4-5 reps on a third set. Once I could lift this weight for 3 x 7 I would increase the resistance and repeat the process. The idea was that one or two sets to failure stimulated a greater adaptive response to stress resulting in faster strength gains. Is it your feeling that avoiding this will actually result in better/faster progress in strength gains over time? Or is the idea mainly rather to avoid over training? I am more interested in functional strength gains than in hypertrophy. Sorry for such long posts--and thanks for any further help to both Fred and Rik.

[Rik de Kort]

You sure do like to write!

Splits - I'm vehemently against splits until recovery becomes an issue (nearing advanced levels). The reason is simple. Say, your goal is planche. You can choose between two routines: one is a simple full routine with planche work, 3x a week. The other is a push/pull split, 3x a week. You'll be hitting planche 1.5x a week on the second routine. Over a year, that's six months (!) of planche progress you just let go to waste because you wanted to do a push/pull while you could've easily done a full routine. Six months, that's a lot of progress!

German Hang - that thing is hard on the elbows for sure. Make sure you don't overdo it. For rest intervals, take as long as you need, which won't be that long in all likelihood.

Going to failure - Zach adressed this.

Workout sets - 3 sets on every exercise as a general rule, but going up to 5 if you need a little bit more volume is fine too.

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

Ha ha--sorry for the length of my posts--I guess that's what comes from living as a solitary forest dweller for too long.

Re splits--I will take your thoughts into consideration when planning my routine. I was actually going to work on 4-5 progressions over the coming months. Not advisable?

I tried the German hang again, and had the feeling "this is not going to be so bad--just approach it kind of slowly..."

Going to failure--so you are saying there is no place for this not only for static holds, but not for body weight exercises either?

So my revised workout(s) will look something like this: warmup--beginner FSP x 1 repeat, 10 mins. burpees jump squats,etc. Then some additional static hold work--certainly L-sit, and HS hold on a regular basis. Repeats on some stage of a progression or two, and then 12--15 sets of body weight exercises. Sound at all reasonable? I need to think it out a bit more but things are slowly falling into place.

Finally, any advice on exercises specifically intended to strengthen joints, ligaments, and tendons? My wrist is improving day by day, but is still rather sore. I will probably plan too start working out again on Monday-- --good excuse to get out on my bike. Thanks for the help to all who posted a reply. So, that's it. See? I'm getting better. :wink:

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

hehe, you made me smile with the reference to the "old farts'" DiGiTaLdAzE

It seems you are doing very, very well with your long term training, fitness & various activities, congratulations!

Incidentally, I have a similar goal of "as fit as possible" at my next round number Bday:)

I am not qualified to evaluate your routine, but from reading the forum, I am wondering why you do not jump in and follow the WODs; you certainly are at a point where you could greatly benefit from Coach Sommer's professional programming, and it takes a lot of the guessing out of the equation.

I am looking forward to following your progress and cheering you along the way

Fred

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

Thanks Zach--I need some clarification. When I say 12-15 sets I do not mean for each exercise, but in total. For instance, a workout could be as follows:

pullups 3x7 reps

Chin ups 3x7 reps

inverted row 3x10 reps

assisted HSPU 3x7 reps

regular dips 3x8 reps

When you say 3-4 sets are you meaning per exercise maybe? I do have the BTGB book BTW.

[Rik de Kort]

Ha ha--sorry for the length of my posts--I guess that's what comes from living as a solitary forest dweller for too long.

Re splits--I will take your thoughts into consideration when planning my routine. I was actually going to work on 4-5 progressions over the coming months. Not advisable?

If you work 4-5 progressions, say something like pullups, pushups, rows, HSPU and SLS, then that's fine. You make the best progress if you focus on a few things, rather than a lot of things.

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

Hey Fred--I'm impressed--you actually went to the trouble write my user name correctly. I even get it wrong on occasion--ha ha.Thanks for the kind words and encouragement--as mentioned, I live somewhat remotely and so do not have access to a gym, or a group of workout buddies so the support is appreciated. I do have a pretty good in home setup, and will add to it a bit more as $$ allow.I was a little afraid my first post might go unanswered, so I am really grateful for all the help offered.

As I am new to gymnastics, I feel pretty good at this point just getting a feel for the exercises, getting used to the rings (which I like a lot), and so on. I am still familiarizing myself with the progressive movements, exercises for core strengthening, joint strength routines, etc. Lots to work on which is great because it keeps things interesting. Before long I will be checking out the WOD. knowledge of how to scale the exercises is key, and I am working on that to. Just learning the meaning of all the acronyms is a bit of job :? --lol. Best of luck with your goals as well--I will watch for you in the forums.

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

Ha ha--sorry for the length of my posts--I guess that's what comes from living as a solitary forest dweller for too long.

Re splits--I will take your thoughts into consideration when planning my routine. I was actually going to work on 4-5 progressions over the coming months. Not advisable?

If you work 4-5 progressions, say something like pullups, pushups, rows, HSPU and SLS, then that's fine. You make the best progress if you focus on a few things, rather than a lot of things.

Was I using the term 'progression' correctly? :? What I meant was that I would choose 4-5 advanced moves such as muscle up, planche, front and back lever, and HSPU, and then start with the easiest variations. For Muscle up I have started doing assisted MU negatives (on rings) with my feet on a chair. For planche I am working on L-sit and planche tuck. The others I would consider are front and back lever, and proper HSPU hoping to achieve freestanding at some distant future time and place. I am wondering if you understood what I meant when you refer to exercises like rows, pushups, and pullups? Anyways, is working on all of those I mention above during the same time period (lifetime ha ha) advisable?

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

Thanks Zach--that is more or less what I was planning to do--just nice to hear it confirmed as an o.k. approach. Not meaning to keep this thread going forever, but here is another thing I have wondered about. The L-sit is one of the first positions to work on, and so I have been doing that pretty regularly with reasonable progress. I still need to increase my hold time, especially when with hips more forward. I see some people doing the L-sit with their hands on the floor which is beyond me at this point. It looks impressive, and is obviously tougher.What is the weakness that usually prohibits a person from doing this position? Hip strength maybe? And what is the means to getting a good L-sit on the floor like that? I have been working on dip bars, but will make my own parallettes to work on as well in due course.

Thanks again to all who replied to my many noob questions--great first experience here. What a week--haven't worked out since Monday. Well, I did do a couple of 5K runs, hopefully some hiking and cycling this weekend. I hope my wrist will be up to a workout on Monday. Anyways if I'm going to be a bit lazy, I might as well do it right--I'm going to do some video gaming.

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

Thanks for the reply. I think I still need to do considerable work on the dip bars with the L-sit first, but would like to eventually learn it on a flat surface with no bars to hold. When I can do a long hold (30s ?) with good from I will put a pic up for some evaluation. So, i will assume just getting a really good L-sit that I can hold will be the main pre-requisite for the more advanced version. As well I will start doing more flexibility work.

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

I am posting at this time re my wrist injury mentioned earlier. When the problem first occurred--Tuesday, May 15, I used ice and heat alternately. Eventually, I was just using heat with a hot water bottle. This caused the pain to subside almost completely, and after 4 days I thought I was well on the way to recovery. Over the weekend I did not use ay heat (got a bit lazy) and went for a 30K bike ride. The biking was almost exclusively on new pavement--not trails. As of today the pain has returned, although not as severe as at first, it is still pretty substantial. I can feel discomfort occasionally even just doing something like lifting a very light object--say a plate of food. I just applied heat for 10 minutes and the pain subsided, but within 10 minutes has returned somewhat.

Symptoms--The pain is on the pinky side of my wrist/arm and localized most notably at the wrist in the large bony protusion there. It is intensified when with palm down I turn my thumb up and out--supination I think, and then sometimes travels down my forearm a bit. In my workout the night before this first manifested I had jumped into a wall HS 25 times in order to do negatives--I had done this 4 days earlier without any problem, but perhaps it was just too much on that last occasion. Do these symptoms sound familiar to anyone? I have been using Google, but most articles are far too technical--and the list of possible wrist injuries is long. I fear that working out while the pain is still present could make things worse. Problem is there was no pain when the injury occured--not until 1/2 day later. So, similarly I may not detect that I am making it worse until it is too late. I can do an L-sit, pushup, or PB support with only mild discomfort--but this probably increases soreness afterwards.

This injury was incurred doing pressing exercises--I have wondered if doing pulling exercises might be o.k., but have my doubts. Also, I am wondering if by wearing a brace of some kind I could start working out sooner/more safely? All I have on hand are a couple of elastic bandages. Re braces--here are a few options I have looked at:

http://www.ten-o.com/TENO-Hyper-Wrist-Support,964.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330617367534?ss ... 1952.l2649

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_ ... rist+brace

http://www.usglove.com/products/Tiger-P ... ports.html

This is kind of discouraging as I was just nicely started, and have now not worked out for a week. If I can get over this issue without too much loss of time, I really MUST figure out how to continue without incurring further injuries. Any advice on any of this would be much appreciated.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

argh, that sucks, but I think Zach is correct

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

The whole thing about lifting a plate could be a bit misleading. I realized tonight that just rotating my arm into the position with my palm up causes the injury site to protest--even before any weight is involved. However, if I I have my palm facing down, and push against a stationary object--say a table top--with the top of my hand (opposite side than the palm) I can exert full force with almost no discomfort. Kind of odd. If I do a PB hold, or L-sit on my dip bars, or a static hang on my rings there is no pain. So I am testing the waters a bit, but I am trying to be careful. On the other hand, just rotate my wrist in the way mentioned and there is discomfort--the degree fluctuates from moderate to more substantial. I may get it x-rayed in a week. Stress fractures will show up much more easily around 2 weeks after they occur--I think it unlikely I have that, but would like to rule it out with certainty.

When things feeI better I will plan trying some moderate work, but would like to be wearing a decent support at that point. Basically, I will be using the presence or absence of pain as my guide as to when to try that. I would like to order a wrist support now so that there is not a delay if my body bounces back quickly. Could either of you recommend a product that would be well suited to the exercises and progressions I have been doing? I was looking at wrist supports called 'Tiger Paws'--and a few others shown in the links above. Thanks for any further advice.

[DiGiTaLdAzE]

Zach--thanks for your further comments. I ordered a set of Tiger Paws today--here is my thinking. This winter when weight training I eventually stopped using a belt and knee wraps for the kinds of reasons you mentioned. But if I were trying to continue working out while injured I would definitely use them again for awhile. I saw a few reviews where gymnasts with healing injuries were using 'Tiger Paws' to enable them to continue training during the healing process. I realize this would all depend on the severity of the injury which is kind of an unknown in my case. If the pain is still there, then I will plan to have my wrist x-rayed in about a week. On resuming training I will have to be careful in my timing. Once I feel ready, even with the supports I would only attempt a few HSPU with my feet on a bench at first to test the waters.

Even if I start doing wrist strengthening exercises now, they will likely take several months to make a really meaningful difference. Once I get started again I can wear the supports when doing certain more risky work like HS, until my wrists have become stronger. Also, the wrist I injured was a healthy wrist when this happened. So, my uninjured wrist is at risk as well when doing the exercises that caused this. And, my injured wrist will for quite some time be much more vulnerable to a relapse--even after a reasonable healing duration has been allowed. As you said, in such cases the use of a supportive device may be justified. I actually broke one of my wrists when in my 20s, but can't remember which one it was--kind of wondered if it was the same one.

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Update--I have only one regret on buying the 'Tiger Paws' yesterday--they are kind of pricey$$ and it occurred to me last night that I could save the money and fabricate myself a serviceable facsimile with an elastic bandage and some rigid foam. I am wearing something I created with a $2. bandage and a piece of foam from a computer parts box on my injured wrist right now. No doubt the real item would be better, but this would probably do to get me by during my initial attempts to work out. My came just a few hours too late I guess--I will be interested to make a comparison when i get the 'Tiger paws' in a day or two.