Boxer Looking for Advice

[Trevor Catterall]

Hello everyone

More and More I am seeing up and coming boxers using similar training to that in the Gymnastic Bodies Book so I would like to adopt a similar strategy. I believe that increasing my strength will have have a great impact on strength endurance and power. Currently I can manage 10 strict full ROM pullups and 14 chinups as well as 35 chin to floor pressups.

If you could afford 40min-1hr 3 times a week how would you structure your training? Obviously I wish to improve my boxing but I also wish to acquire mastery of the body including freestanding handstand pushups (presently i can manage about 50 second wall handstand). Ps Manna would be cool as well.

Thanks in advance

[Joshua Naterman]

Hello everyone

More and More I am seeing up and coming boxers using similar training to that in the Gymnastic Bodies Book so I would like to adopt a similar strategy. I believe that increasing my strength will have have a great impact on strength endurance and power. Currently I can manage 10 strict full ROM pullups and 14 chinups as well as 35 chin to floor pressups.

If you could afford 40min-1hr 3 times a week how would you structure your training? Obviously I wish to improve my boxing but I also wish to acquire mastery of the body including freestanding handstand pushups (presently i can manage about 50 second wall handstand). Ps Manna would be cool as well.

Thanks in advance

I am so glad that you mentioned your handstand! Slowly working into full ROM HSPU stomach to wall with upper arms parallel and close to the body will make your straight and looping punches ridiculously dangerous. This will take a good long time but will start making a difference fairly quickly.

I would also start working on planche and FL prerequisites right away. That will include L sit. Start at the beginning, take a max hold with perfect form (stop time as soon as form shifts at all) and then start with 3 sets of 50-60% of that time. Might not be much at first. Do that 3-4 days per week, and re-evaluate your max hold times every 2-3 weeks, repeating the process. You should see consistent improvement. At no time, whether during a max hold or during a working set, should you continue working once you feel your hold become less than perfect, even if it is really close to perfect. That's the key to building solid body shapes, and solid body shapes are the key to making this kind of training put you head and shoulders above your competition. Chances are good that they are not being so structured, and this will limit their long term progress.

I would start with the prerequisites? thread in either Getting Started or Basic Strength, and also check this :http://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6448&start=15#p57581 to learn the proper hollow form for planche work, starting with straight arm planks. The hump in the middle of the back is not strictly necessary, but may help you at first.

[Trevor Catterall]

Great Reply Much Appreciated. When talking about Handstand training would you apply the same 50-60% of max (static hold) across 3 sets or use 10 minutes taking as little break as possible? Or did you mean handstand pushups for reps?

I reckon this would take about 30 minutes at most to complete so I'll start with your template and report back on my progress in a couple of months. Thanks once again.

[Joshua Naterman]

Great Reply Much Appreciated. When talking about Handstand training would you apply the same 50-60% of max (static hold) across 3 sets or use 10 minutes taking as little break as possible? Or did you mean handstand pushups for reps?

I reckon this would take about 30 minutes at most to complete so I'll start with your template and report back on my progress in a couple of months. Thanks once again.

Good questions...

What I would do is perform the handstands separately. You aren't going to be completely blasted or anything if you are performing the right hold times for those circuits, so a 10 minute rest at most should be enough if you want to jump right into HS holds.

You could do other things like leg work or footwork/movement drills like weave lines or whatever else you like if you don't want to 'waste' time.

For the handstand, you should do the 10 minute drills once a week. You've got a 50s HS, so try doing 25s wall HS with 30-45s rest for as many rounds as you can without losing good form. If you want, take a good 5 minutes to rest and sip some sport drink and then repeat once more. At the end of each month re-evaluate your max hold. Eventually it should get to the 3-5 minute range without losing form. Obviously over time it can get much longer than that, but for your purposes that's plenty. As time goes on it will keep getting better, but at 5 minutes on the wall, stomach to wall, you are going to be just fine.

I would only do that once a week, and on a different, non-consecutive day I would work on whatever ROM HeSPU you can do without arching the back. Don't worry if it's only a few inches... your best friend will be a stack of boards to touch your head on. Remove 1 board every 5-8 weeks, concentrating on building up your volume throughout each period to where you can do sets of 10 reps at least. Don't bounce in them either, nice and steady. 1s up, 1s down would be nice for the shorter ROM, trying to keep a similar speed as you get stronger. That should be 3-5s down, 3-5s up with full ROM. The most important thing is to make sure you're working for 30-40s straight at the same pace, so as your ROM gets longer you'll do fewer "reps" but you will be working a greater range of motion. I wouldn't do more than 3 sets, and as always never lose perfect form!

This can be more challenging to the ego than anything else at first, so if you need to don't be afraid do do some non-gymnastic circuit training to round out your work and satisfy the need to occasionally work really hard.

[Trevor Catterall]

This can be more challenging to the ego than anything else at first, so if you need to don't be afraid do do some non-gymnastic circuit training to round out your work and satisfy the need to occasionally work really hard.

Love this Quote. As a boxer I have to literally fall out the Gym otherwise I think I haven't worked hard enough. Don't have the strength to approach Gymnastic Bodies training in this manner so will have to use a steady, intelligent programme otherwise I can see burnout trying to balance all elements of training - conditioning, sparring etc.

Also love the clarity of your guidance. If I understand correctly a training routine would go as follows:

1. Warm-up (wrists, shoulders etc)

2. PreRequisites

3. Handstand Work (1 day pw static hold + 1 day pw hspu)

4. L-Sit Work

5. Front Lever Work

6. Planche Work

(7. stretching/Prehab)

Varying depending on feel. Will improvement in these areas carry over to better pullup, pressup, dips performance as well?

Cheers once again.

[Joshua Naterman]

Thanks! I try to be practical, and part of a boxer's training is to build repeat sprint ability which is hard work. That's for the upper body as well as the lower.

Your best bet for the upper body part is upper body cycles and speed bag work with a really small bag and very simple fast handwork like single bounce strikes instead of the 1,2,3 hit pattern that is normally used for more complicated work. I don't like working sprint endurance punching on heavy bags unless your coach is watching because that is how you develop bad habits (on your own). You could use resistance tubing and just do standing repeated straight punches to maybe 3/4 extension at max speed, alternating left and right punches, doing8 rounds of 20s work sets with 10s breaks. Basically upper body Tabata intervals. Then I would turn around and do the same thing while pulling back, basically high speed punch retractions with light resistance(moving from that 3/4 extension all the way back to ready position). This is not something you should make super heavy, it's all about being able to do this at maximum speed with good form and too much resistance will screw up your form. It will always be more than your fist + gloves, so you don't need to go crazy here. A 10 lb band or tube is perfect, and trying more than 20 lbs will probably screw up your form. I would just stick to 10 lbs, always keeping some tension on the band right from the start. Use longer bands, short ones will increase tension too much. You can loop them around anything that won't fray the band.

Obviously jumping rope is also a good way to accomplish conditioning, and I will suggest that you follow Buddy Lee's program. just search for "buddy lee jump rope" on google and you'll get what you need. Get the book and any rope, I'd get the 20 dollar swivel bearing rope with the longer handles. I have the most expensive one and there is really no difference other than that my rope is much more difficult to perform more complicated footwork with, and that's not a good thing.

Between the jumping rope, some 200m sprints on the upper body days to balance things out with the punching, and some long slow distance for recovery and rest days (and I do mean slow! Don't let your heart rate go over 130 beats per minute, you want to be able to EASILY carry on a conversation) you will be totally set for your conditioning and you should be able to satisfy that need to fall out of the gym while actually HELPING yourself!

1-6 looks good, 4-6 don't start happening until 2 allows you to do this, because eventually 2 gets almost completely replaced by 4-6. Make sense? The pre-requisites need to be accomplished before you start working on the statics directly. As that happens, you'll just do 1 45-60s hold of the pre-requisite and 1 set of 40-60 hollow rocks before doing your L sit and FL work, for example. You really shouldn't do any direct planche holds until you have that 30s L sit on the floor. This CAN be on PB as long as you have something at PB height under your feet to ensure proper foot height.

As long as you are using good form and continue practicing your sit ups, pull ups, etc, you will see carryover in both directions. The moving work improves the statics, and the statics improve the moving work. Either on their own is really not all that effective.

I will link you my video on planche progressions when it is done, it will show your push ups the way they need to be done to benefit your planche work as well as your boxing. Your push ups are about to get a lot harder.

[Guest Ragnarok]

I would also start working on planche and FL prerequisites right away. That will include L sit. Start at the beginning, take a max hold with perfect form (stop time as soon as form shifts at all) and then start with 3 sets of 50-60% of that time. Might not be much at first. Do that 3-4 days per week, and re-evaluate your max hold times every 2-3 weeks, repeating the process. You should see consistent improvement.

I thought the bare minimum for a SSC were 8 weeks?

[Rik de Kort]

It is the bare minimum for an SSC. Doesn't mean you absolutely need to run an SSC.

[Trevor Catterall]

LOL The heavy Bag advice comes 4 years too late. My tip to anyone starting boxing is not to use the heavy bag too much. As Slizzard man said it really can set your technique back and it can be a real sod trying to undo the damage; I'm living testament to that.

Once again fantastic advice. I tend to use Ross Enamait products so have his skipping DVD which is quite excellent. No further questions as you've answered everything. Really cannot wait for the planche progression video add me to the waiting list.

[Joshua Naterman]

I would also start working on planche and FL prerequisites right away. That will include L sit. Start at the beginning, take a max hold with perfect form (stop time as soon as form shifts at all) and then start with 3 sets of 50-60% of that time. Might not be much at first. Do that 3-4 days per week, and re-evaluate your max hold times every 2-3 weeks, repeating the process. You should see consistent improvement.

I thought the bare minimum for a SSC were 8 weeks?

For a classical SSC it is, but that's a really slow way to do the pre-reqs. They aren't anywhere near low leverage enough to need to take that approach, I mean in my opinion only planche and back lever holds will truly benefit the most from a true SSC.

With the easy stuff, like prerequisites, we aren't really in a position where connective tissues can fail so we can basically run shorter SSC.

[FREDERIC DUPONT]

(...) For a classical SSC it is, but that's a really slow way to do the pre-reqs. They aren't anywhere near low leverage enough to need to take that approach, I mean in my opinion only planche and back lever holds will truly benefit the most from a true SSC.

With the easy stuff, like prerequisites, we aren't really in a position where connective tissues can fail so we can basically run shorter SSC.

Hummm, I have no doubt that it has been your experience Joshua, however, I am wondering what makes you think it applies to others?

I see many beginners reporting elbow, wrist or shoulder pains doing the prerequisites; it is all over the beginner's forum!

I am new to BtGB program, but not a beginner as far as intense training is concerned; yet, I am finding that certain exercises are very taxing on the body: to me supinated dead hangs are straining my elbows, and reverse planks my wrists and shoulders. If these prerequisites are hard on me, they are hard on others too!

It has also been written many times on the boards that SSC allows for the learning of the process and the learning of the patience needed to follow that process...

Who is to know on an internet forum what the capabilities and training history of the members are? My humble understanding is that SSC for the prerequisites is "the great equalizer" that more or less brings people of different backgrounds to a common starting point in terms of (1) ability to perform basic requirements, (2) a level of understanding and awareness on how their bodies work, and (3) a first taste of a process that, if they follow it well, will bring them into high leverage territory where not following this process always lead to injury.

IMHO, even if it is possible for some to bypass these early steps and plow ahead, it is a mistake to advise them to!

Of note, SSC was originally promoted on the forum as a 6 to 8 weeks cycle; it is now an 8 to 12 weeks protocol, and for good reasons!

I also note that the second edition of BtGB book will include prerequisites, joint mobilization and preparation, and I guess lots of prehab and maintenance exercises... the reasons for it are all over the injury threads too.

The answer to newbies asking about progressions found in the book used to be: "show me a 6 min video with you doing the prerequisites perfectly for 60s holds, and I'll answer your question"... I think the drift towards "only planche and back lever holds will truly benefit the most from a true SSC", and "With the easy stuff, like prerequisites, we aren't really in a position where connective tissues can fail so we can basically run shorter SSC", is a mistake.

Like many, you have learned the hard way where your limits were; some may not know that for themselves yet... BtGB program had build in redundancies, overlaps and safeties that are designed to prevent people from injuring themselves; they are built on Coach Sommer's 40 years(?) experience, and have been tested outside of the controlled environment of supervised training in the fires of this public forum... I do not think this should be changed lightly.

Fred

PS: With this advice, you'll soon have everyone questioning the validity of an SSC protocol; doing their own experiments at cutting corners; and joining the legions of injured, let down enthusiasts.

[Guest Ragnarok]

For a classical SSC it is, but that's a really slow way to do the pre-reqs. They aren't anywhere near low leverage enough to need to take that approach, I mean in my opinion only planche and back lever holds will truly benefit the most from a true SSC.

With the easy stuff, like prerequisites, we aren't really in a position where connective tissues can fail so we can basically run shorter SSC.

So only PL and BL should be done with a strict SSC. FL and L-sit no?

[Joshua Naterman]

Fred, it is always up to each trainee to listen to his or her body. I am not going to type that in every single post I type, that is a running theme. It will get repeated as necessary to new people by me, or you, or one of the other forum members. I can't help anyone who won't listen to their own body.

As for your personal issue, bear in mind that if me presenting my experience (which happens to be the experience of many others) doesn't apply to others then you presenting yours doesn't either. Logic does not allow anything else to be the case.

There is nothing I have said that questions the validity of SSC, simply making more frequent adjustments based on changing capabilities in high leverage positions. The 50% of max hold still applies, as I clearly stated. You still need a 60s hold before you start transitioning to the next step. I do not believe in a discrete jump from step 1 to step 2, and there really isn't supposed to be one... you always start with a single 60s hold of step 1 before starting with step 2. There's no need to go a full 8 weeks with the pre-requisites, but you can if you want or if your body needs it for whatever reason. Either way, you need to re-evaluate what your 50% max hold time is before the next cycle, whether it is 3 weeks or 12 weeks. When you're doing anaerobic endurance work you're primarily undergoing upregulation of anaerobic enzymes and local processing of lactate by aerobic fibers. There is a reason I consistently recommend that people not perform working sets of less than 15s when trying to get a 60s aggregate time and why I always say to do 3-4 working sets (same rule, if you think about it) when time is shorter. It's not my fault that people don't listen. When they go balls to the wall and try and hold every hold for as long as they can they should expect to get hurt. That's how it works. Sooner or later each person will hurt themselves enough to where they will finally get with the program and stop trying to do it their own way. I'm just here to help them when they get to that point, and to encourage them to get there faster and without injuries if possible.

The most important statics to perform with a true 8-12 week SSC are BL and PL, because they place the elbow in a very vulnerable position because the elbow is at the end of its anatomical ROM and is fully supported by connective tissues in a very low leverage position. The 2nd edition deals with a more specific approach to all this stuff.

If, by chance, shorter SSC aren't working for you with L-sit and FL (for example) AND you are doing correct FBE work (sit ups, HLL variations, pull ups, foot supported rows, and so on) then you need to run a longer SSC, but most people aren't doing that. With personal clients I have yet to encounter a situation where this formulation doesn't lead to steady, safe progress. I don't know why people don't do it this way, we always recommend that this be the approach, the issue is that there isn't a pre-printed step-by-step from the ground up protocol. This is being taken care of in the 2nd edition, don't worry.

Until then we are all just going to have to do the unthinkable and think for ourselves, use good sense, and listen to our bodies. God help us all...

PS: I have seen a number of the same elbow issues with hangs and it tends to be caused by bad alignment (which in turn is sometimes caused by bad mobility). Subtly so, particularly with my girlfriend during chin up negatives, and a slight hands-on correction instantly makes the problem disappear. I can not be there for everyone, and like all of us you are going to have to try and figure out what your particular alignment/mobility issues are and how to start addressing them. That's how it is. We can try and help by reviewing video in digital coaching if you post some. You'll want several angles, preferably every 30 degrees but realistically 6 angles from left side view to frontal view to right side view will help the most.

[Rik de Kort]

Thanks for the confirmation, Josh. That was what I've been suspecting all along.

I also hope they hurry up with releasing the second edition. My birthday is in a month!