Is it possible?

[Jordi Van Gelder]

I just want to know if it's possible to do those 2 moves:

pull up to iron cross with straight arms, starting deadhang of course.

pull up to inverted cross with straight arms ( like inverted muscle up with straight arms? )

Thank you very much,

NeN.

[alec_ar]

The first one is highly possible and done by several gymnasts such as Aleksandr Balandin and Wesley Haagensen, as well as Dong Zhen from China. It's called a butterfly pull to cross and is quite rare as it is a highly difficult skill for its D value. (I assume that's why we don't see too many)

The second move has yet to be done I believe but I think it's also physiologically possible. It would be called something like "inverted butterfly pull to inverted cross". If you look lower down on the ring strength forum there is a topic about this skill. I'm currently training this skill, with a heavy amount of assistance of course!

[Rik de Kort]

The first thing is called a butterfly mount. Second would be an inverted cross pull. I'm sure the former has been done many times (though I haven't seen a vid).

[Jordi Van Gelder]

Thank you! didn't know there is another topic about this. There is any vid of this move ?

[seiyafan]

The first is a D element,.

[Jordi Van Gelder]

D element, this is like Maltese then. I'm interested in that ranking of moves, i found one list of this, but there don't appear all moves i would like to see, like oac, one arm levers and planches, human flag......also i think there is something wrong. Lsit and front lever are in the same level, but front lever it's harder than lsit. Also how do you know the butterfly is D, who says one move it's C or D.....?

Regards.

[Razz]

Haha one arm chins are not a part of gymnastics in that sense. You can google "MIG code of points", but I guess that's the one you have already. Front lever and l-sit are the same because they are both supposed to be so easy that any high level gymnast can do them.

[seiyafan]

D element, this is like Maltese then. I'm interested in that ranking of moves, i found one list of this, but there don't appear all moves i would like to see, like oac, one arm levers and planches, human flag......also i think there is something wrong. Lsit and front lever are in the same level, but front lever it's harder than lsit. Also how do you know the butterfly is D, who says one move it's C or D.....?

Regards.

Human flag on rings? yeah, something IS wrong.

[Michael Traynor]

The former is called a "vertical pull-up" in the FIG MAG COP but often gets referred to as a "Butterfly", especially in the US. Here is a video of it on it's own by Wes Haagensen.

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Here is it used in combination to maltese (swallow) and inverted cross which are both named elements

@ 3.00mins Balandin 1 and 2 named elements being performed by Balandin.

--U_mgXrYbY

The latter as far as i'm aware hasn't ever been performed. (i'm pretty sure i'd have seen it if it had).

[seiyafan]

The former is called a "vertical pull-up" in the FIG MAG COP but often gets referred to as a "Butterfly", especially in the US. Here is a video of it on it's own by Wes Haagensen.

_Tr_-4yqpvI

I remember a while ago someone at this forum was asking if MU can be done without any leaning forward. Well, from watching this video, it seems someone who is strong enough to do a straigh arm pull to iron cross could not manage a lean-less MU in the very beginning. Unless he wasn't serious, but it nonetheless shows just how much more strength one would need to perform a lean-less MU.

[Coach Sommer]

... from watching this video, it seems someone who is strong enough to do a straigh arm pull to iron cross could not manage a lean-less MU in the very beginning ...

This assertion is completely incorrect.

A butterfly is several orders of magnitude more difficult than a wide grip MU (the lean-less MU you are referring to). An athlete capable of a butterfly would not even notice the MU.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[alec_ar]

Coach,

I know that the butterfly pull is incredibly difficult but I was wondering just how hard it is. I know that there is not probably much correlation between bent arm weighted pull ups and a butterfly, but would it maybe be equivalent to around a 2.5x or 3x bodyweight pull up?

[Joshua Naterman]

Coach,

I know that the butterfly pull is incredibly difficult but I was wondering just how hard it is. I know that there is not probably much correlation between bent arm weighted pull ups and a butterfly, but would it maybe be equivalent to around a 2.5x or 3x bodyweight pull up?

It doesn't work that way. There are so many muscles involved with a butterfly that don't do anything during a pull up that you literally can not compare the movements in these terms.

As a general rule, you can not compare a straight arm movement to a bent arm. They are very different. It is a bad idea, as well as pointless in practical terms, to think in the terms you state.

[Joshua Naterman]

I remember a while ago someone at this forum was asking if MU can be done without any leaning forward. Well, from watching this video, it seems someone who is strong enough to do a straigh arm pull to iron cross could not manage a lean-less MU in the very beginning. Unless he wasn't serious, but it nonetheless shows just how much more strength one would need to perform a lean-less MU.

That is silly. Did you notice how easily he threw himself up over the rings? All he was doing was setting a false grip for the butterfly cross.

They are different movements that rely on somewhat different muscle groups (due to the presence of a strong bent arm internal rotation transition in the MU that is absent in the butterfly for obvious reasons), but in terms of prime mover strength there is no comparison: Butterfly is way harder.

Again, trying to draw direct comparisons between bent arm and straight arm skills, movements, exercises, whatever anyone wants to call them... is faulty thinking in a lot of ways.

[alec_ar]

I know that they are entirely different but I was trying to think of it in the same way that coach compared a planche to a bench press. He said to think of it as a 2x bodyweight bench press on a stability ball with your feet in the air. (I believe that is what he said, it's been a little while since I read his interview) So even though they are too different to compare directly I was thinking in those regards. Maybe I should have phrased it: if you can do a butterfly, how much added weight would you likely be able to pull up? Once again, if they are too different then I understand, I just wanted to know roughly how much carryover there is for a butterfly to a standard pull up.

[Jordi Van Gelder]

D element, this is like Maltese then. I'm interested in that ranking of moves, i found one list of this, but there don't appear all moves i would like to see, like oac, one arm levers and planches, human flag......also i think there is something wrong. Lsit and front lever are in the same level, but front lever it's harder than lsit. Also how do you know the butterfly is D, who says one move it's C or D.....?

Regards.

Human flag on rings? yeah, something IS wrong.

Omg haha of course i know humang flag cannot be done in rings, and also one arm levers are not included in ring routines, just say that we can add more moves in that rankings.

Regards.

[Rik de Kort]

NeN, if you're looking to see where skills like OAC rank, you should check out Overcoming Gravity's charts.

[seiyafan]

ha, i just saw the chart and almost fell on the floor when I saw OAC + 25 lbs.

[Jordi Van Gelder]

Thank you, but i just can't find information of this, i must buy the book right?

[Joshua Naterman]

I know that they are entirely different but I was trying to think of it in the same way that coach compared a planche to a bench press. He said to think of it as a 2x bodyweight bench press on a stability ball with your feet in the air. (I believe that is what he said, it's been a little while since I read his interview) So even though they are too different to compare directly I was thinking in those regards. Maybe I should have phrased it: if you can do a butterfly, how much added weight would you likely be able to pull up? Once again, if they are too different then I understand, I just wanted to know roughly how much carryover there is for a butterfly to a standard pull up.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a +1.0bw as added weight, if not more. In your terms, a 2x bw or better. This would vary from person to person, much like planche does.

[John Sapinoso]

I know that they are entirely different but I was trying to think of it in the same way that coach compared a planche to a bench press. He said to think of it as a 2x bodyweight bench press on a stability ball with your feet in the air. (I believe that is what he said, it's been a little while since I read his interview) So even though they are too different to compare directly I was thinking in those regards. Maybe I should have phrased it: if you can do a butterfly, how much added weight would you likely be able to pull up? Once again, if they are too different then I understand, I just wanted to know roughly how much carryover there is for a butterfly to a standard pull up.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a +1.0bw as added weight, if not more. In your terms, a 2x bw or better. This would vary from person to person, much like planche does.

It's likely much much more. I'm nowhere near a butterfly and can pull about a 1.75bw (a smaller person hanging from my chest) last time I tried.

[Brian Li]

It's likely much much more. I'm nowhere near a butterfly and can pull about a 1.75bw (a smaller person hanging from my chest) last time I tried.

I agree, you can pull about that much weight if you can hold a full FL for a few seconds or able to do a OAC on each arm and those are nowhere near as hard on the lats as a butterfly.

[Brian Li]

Is it also possible to do an inverted cross straight arm press to handstand? I have seen Yuri van Gelder do it before in an exhibition in a youtube video, but he was using some bands or wires that take off some of his weight.

[Joshua Naterman]

I know that they are entirely different but I was trying to think of it in the same way that coach compared a planche to a bench press. He said to think of it as a 2x bodyweight bench press on a stability ball with your feet in the air. (I believe that is what he said, it's been a little while since I read his interview) So even though they are too different to compare directly I was thinking in those regards. Maybe I should have phrased it: if you can do a butterfly, how much added weight would you likely be able to pull up? Once again, if they are too different then I understand, I just wanted to know roughly how much carryover there is for a butterfly to a standard pull up.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a +1.0bw as added weight, if not more. In your terms, a 2x bw or better. This would vary from person to person, much like planche does.

It's likely much much more. I'm nowhere near a butterfly and can pull about a 1.75bw (a smaller person hanging from my chest) last time I tried.

Probably. I can butterfly a third of my weight comfortably and I can still pull about 1.5x bw. I personally think this kind of questin is really stupid, but people are curious and don't have a good enough understanding of anatomy to see why this is a really pointless question. I try not to entertain too much of it, there's no such thing as a real answer.

[seiyafan]

I tried butterfly on a free motion machine, could do 6-8 reps with 25% BW I felt a lot stress on my bicep tendon, especially the moment right after the pull, after that it gets a bit better, when both my arms are at horizontal (I actually don't feel much stress on bicep as before), so butterfly pull is really an advanced skill. I didn't feel much on the shoulders, not much on lats either because it is bottle necked by the weak bicep tendon.