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Gymnastic Training and Weight Training

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Nic Branson

Frequency is huge with high skill movements. I still start with an empty bar. There is some variance from individual to individual but think of the warm up for a movement as a neural primer. Practice if you will..

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Joshua Naterman
Ah yes that makes a lot more sense.

I think you are definitely right on calorie intake, sometimes I find myself waking up in the middle of the night to et. That can't be good when your body interrupts sleep, because it say I need food. I've taken to making sure I eat before bed.

By the way when we train if we are missing weights that you should make generally my coach will make you go back down and build up again. Example about 3 months ago I had a shitty training, missed snatching 90 a couple of times. we dropped to 70 and built back up again, the second time it was no problem. Although the sport it is power based sometimes your skill execution goes to shit. In general we never really train to a level where you would experience a power drop in training. My Coach's theory is always do your best lifts in competition, so rarely would we push in training to that point where you would experience a drop in power. Many other's like the chinese and bulgarians would push way harder than us tho, but they have the luxury of not having to have jobs, in Aus the best lifters all still need to work for a living so the most they can manage to train is maybe 8 X a week. Not a lot by elite lifting standards. Tho there is this one freak at my gym who trains 3 X a week if he's lucky and snatches 155-160 C & J 200.

Tho we did do a couple of weeks of Bulgarian style training which was really high volume, it was fun and left me pretty wrecked, but it was only a couple of weeks as my coach said we would not handle more than that.

Hahaha! Yes, Bulgarian training will wreck you, definitely takes cycling for people who don't literally live in the gym!

Sounds like your coach knows what he's doing. Sometimes the CNS isn't primed properly, and like you said sometimes form is just sloppy. Going back down and building back up the tree is a great way to find out if you are actually done for the day. You will know right away if you really pull hard on 70, because if it feels slightly weak or just not as powerful as it should be then you have probably reached the point of diminishing returns for that training day.

These school computers are awful... I can't type like this. More later.

It's later now. I added a little to the original response. If you aren't experiencing even a small drop in power then you're primarily working submaximally which is great for really ingraining the movement pattern but isn't necessarily going to get you your absolute best performance. The differences are small, but an extra 3-5k per lift each year makes a big difference over a few years. Max power doesn't necessarily mean that the weight has to go up, you just have to put absolutely everything you can into the attempt once you get to your work singles or doubles. That is really where training a power clean from the floor with true max power and training the full clean with something up there but really more oriented towards keeping a super fast and low catch gets you what you need on both ends. I would never train the max power more than 3x per week without every possible training advantage, like basically living to lift as your profession.

I agree, leave true max attempts for competitions for the most part. An athlete can really only truly peak 1-2x per year, and it would suck if that wasn't on competition days.

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Rikke Olsen

I too, am trying out the NutriTiming (I really wish the Android app will be out soon!) - it really opened my eyes to especially one thing - about the traditional calorie restriction. With the normal calorie restriction, you'll end up spiraling further and further down the deficit. For some reason, I think most people think your whole body just magically resets its energy expenditure/need overnight. At least, I guess that's what I've unconsciously been thinking.

I just need to figure out a way that makes it easier to know how much to eat every different hour... maybe it'll come with feel, but I feel sort of neurotic about it right now, lol.

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Nic Branson

Give it time and start really trying to listen to your body, over some months you will start to really get a good feel.

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anhkun

what if you arent confident with olympic lifts and dont have access to a proper coach? would heavy atg squats help with things like tumbling and jumping power?

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Nic Scheelings

Although I think a coach is definitely a huge help for oly lifting, I think you can develop some proficiency on your own. There are some good training resources out there, tho it generally does take a while to get the hang of it. In general i would say it's fairly safe as well as long as you learn to miss correctly, much like learning to come out of a HS correctly.

By the way here's a couple of clips of my coach Robert Kabbas, one of Australia's best ever weightlifters. And what a Moe!

Tho he doesnt't have it anymore.

d_oWa6Y_2gM

bRnnMtVnl84

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Philip Chubb

I am thinking about adding some weighted uphill forward and backward sprints on my olifting days. I don't remember where it was but I remember Coach saying this exercise was even better than the gymnastic version of doing squats? (With partners on your shoulders will holding onto stall bars) I am guessing it would make running into hurdles stronger which would be a plus when tumbling? And the backward ones are good for prehab and the last little bits of extension during tumbling?

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Joshua Naterman
what if you arent confident with olympic lifts and dont have access to a proper coach? would heavy atg squats help with things like tumbling and jumping power?

I am with Demus, you can do an awful lot on your own. There are excellent videos on youtube that teach form, and there are books as well.

Having said that, ATG squats don't have to be heavy. They just need to be ATG. Obviously, the stronger you get with these the stronger your tumbling will get (so long as you are actually doing dynamic work as well), but the most important thing is that you will actually be using your hip musculature instead of relying more on the legs exclusively. This makes a good athlete great.

I think you will have no trouble learning power cleans. Snatch is very technical, but you can always do snatch high pulls or just stick with PC. PC from the ground is probably the single best thing you could do, especially if you are concerned about a lack of coaching.

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Brian Li

If anyone here has time could you please post some of the best links of sources or names of youtube channels/videos as well as books that teach or demonstrate how to power cleans and Olympic Lifts correctly. Thanks! I would like to start learning how to power clean and hang clean properly some time.

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anhkun
what if you arent confident with olympic lifts and dont have access to a proper coach? would heavy atg squats help with things like tumbling and jumping power?

I am with Demus, you can do an awful lot on your own. There are excellent videos on youtube that teach form, and there are books as well.

Having said that, ATG squats don't have to be heavy. They just need to be ATG. Obviously, the stronger you get with these the stronger your tumbling will get (so long as you are actually doing dynamic work as well), but the most important thing is that you will actually be using your hip musculature instead of relying more on the legs exclusively. This makes a good athlete great.

I think you will have no trouble learning power cleans. Snatch is very technical, but you can always do snatch high pulls or just stick with PC. PC from the ground is probably the single best thing you could do, especially if you are concerned about a lack of coaching.

yeah i have no problem with power cleans, but man snatches look scary

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Nic Scheelings

My advice if you want to learn to snatch (but everyone will teach a different way, but I think this works well for beginners) is get comfortable with weight overhead first. Some behind the neck snatch grip pressing, to develop control and stability in this position. Then learn to overhead squat and try to develop a nice overhead position in the bottom of the squat. A lot of people tend to have the weight too far behind when they overhead squat as they are not flexible enough and used to a powerlifting style squat. The more upright you are in this position the better as all the weight stacks on your body.

I don't think it is necessary to do overhead squats very heavy, it is really just about developing your position, as you overhead squat when you full snatch anyway and you will develop your leg strength from squats. No one ever misses a snatch because it's too heavy to stand up with, it's either your not fast enough or it's too far behind, too far forward etc..

Then start with power snatches, power snatches and then ride it down to full squat. Then full snatch. Easy huh? :)

Oh and best resources, Cal strength have some nice stuff

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Blairbob

Catalyst Athletics/PerformanceMenu. CalStrength/Pendlay.com Gayle Hatch used to have some stuff and look for Coach Burgener's stuff in the Crossfit video archive or journal.

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Rikke Olsen

I second Catalystathletics.com. I'm fairly new to o-lifting too, but Greg Everett and Mike Burgener's tips and advice are really good.

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Sailor Venus

I haven't read this whole thread properly, just the first post. After I quit football and focused on everything gymnastic related. I threw away my old gym plan and stopped lifting weights (nearly all of it) and replaced them with calisthenics exercises and any exercises that is exclusive to gymnastics. After all, gymnastics conditioning/training is all about holding your own bodyweight in awkward positions or moving them (slowly or explosively). I don't lift weights anymore, the only weight lifting I do is squats, deadlifts, snatch and clean & jerk.

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Ruthen

Provide it with time and begin really trying to pay attention to your  body, over some several weeks you will begin to really get a good experience. It varies from person to person, be motivated and enjoy fitness. 

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Blairbob

Looks like someone resurrected this thread, lol.

 

 

 

the only weight lifting I do is squats, deadlifts, snatch and clean & jerk.

Lol. So you are basically doing the core lifts in Olympic and Powerlifting ( besides no bench press ).

 

 

For gymnasts and myself, I prefer them at the end of the day. After a session of Olympic Lifting, my ability to be fast and be powerful is just done. 

However, it is possible to Squat and Deadlift early in a session. It kind of depends on the load and programming but it's ok ( I still prefer towards the end of the day ).

Point, I did not work the Olympic Lifts at the end of my or my gymnast sessions. Basically squat or deadlift. No pressing or jerking.

 

These days, I prefer a Snatch or Clean High Pull done in the Chinese method for non lifters. That being said, gymnasts probably don't really need to work these but can still benefit from squatting or deadlifting (or variants like SLDL or RDL). Gymnasts will still be doing more than enough speed work via vaulting (sprinting) or tumbling.

However, most gymnasts would probably have a lot more fun doing a full lifting program than being limited to just Pulls and Jerks/Press variants.

 

For a recreational enthusiast, by all means a partial or full lifting program. For a competitive gymnast, I prefer the first. It would be my head if they get hurt with a missed clean (wrist sprain) or tweaking an elbow or shoulder in a snatch. 

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