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Deetron

Gymnastic Training and Weight Training

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Deetron

Hello Everyone,

After the recent post by Coach Sommer regarding the basketball team being extremely strong from training with olympic lifting and gymnastics, i got to thinking more about my training. Recently I have been trying to combine weight training with Gymnastic Strength Training™. The problem is that I get too worn out from one or the other and I end up neglecting something.

So my question to you guys is, what kind of balacing should there be between the two training regimes? I am looking to increase overall strength but also increase my planche, handstands etc.

I currently work out at home and have a small gym available with dumbell free weights and a all around machine. I also have a pull up bar and parralettes.

Any good combinations work for you guys? Also, if this has been covered in a different thread, I appologize for reposting.

Thanks!

D

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Niels Joergensen
Hello Everyone,

After the recent post by Coach Sommer regarding the basketball team being extremely strong from training with olympic lifting and gymnastics, i got to thinking more about my training. Recently I have been trying to combine weight training with Gymnastic Strength Training™. The problem is that I get too worn out from one or the other and I end up neglecting something.

So my question to you guys is, what kind of balacing should there be between the two training regimes? I am looking to increase overall strength but also increase my planche, handstands etc.

I currently work out at home and have a small gym available with dumbell free weights and a all around machine. I also have a pull up bar and parralettes.

Any good combinations work for you guys? Also, if this has been covered in a different thread, I appologize for reposting.

Thanks!

D

That's very difficult to say. Depends on work capacity. When starting out with both at once it may be too much. An option is to increase the volume from the weighttraining and gymnastics gradually instead of going full force and blow yourself out. Let yourself get used to it and you will soon have a bigger work capacity to do more work

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Philip Chubb

Any good combinations work for you guys? Also, if this has been covered in a different thread, I appologize for reposting.

Thanks!

I rotate a schedule of bent arm strength, straight arm strength, and leg strength. Twice a week. Leg days are where I put in olifting. If you're a bit more new, try arm days and include bent and straight arm, and leg days with olifting.

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Deetron

Thank you for your insight.

Do you think that I should switch up weight training and gymnastics every other week or so? Or keep doing them both in the same workout session?

As for bent vs straight arm training. I do not have access to rings, so what are some other good straight arm exercises? Right now i do tuck planche holds and planche leans.

Thanks!

D

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Philip Chubb
Thank you for your insight.

Do you think that I should switch up weight training and gymnastics every other week or so? Or keep doing them both in the same workout session?

As for bent vs straight arm training. I do not have access to rings, so what are some other good straight arm exercises? Right now i do tuck planche holds and planche leans.

Thanks!

D

I would do 4 days a week. One day of bent/straight strength and one of leg lifting then a rest day. Do you have a bar, Front lever pulls back lever pulls, cast wall walks, press hs ect ect.

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Deetron

Thank you!

Yes i do have a pull up bar. I will give that routine a try.

I appreciate it!

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Joshua Naterman

You are also probably doing way too much volume in an attempt to cover all the bases.

For the most part you should feel like you could do the whole workout again within an hour of finishing. If you don't, you did too much.

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Nic Scheelings

Josh is that really how you train? Asking for interest sake.

This is generally not how I train either gymnastics or weightlifting. In weightlifting if i'm doing 80% stuff, yeah I could prob do it again in an hour but, if we are going very heavy esp on squat I doubt it.

Same with gymnastics, as I normally warm up, prehab, then HS, Then skills apparatus work, then condition I'm normally spent by the end. Decent time of maybe 6 hours inbetween training no problem but def not an hour or so afterwards.

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Cole Dano

That does sound mighty conservative as a hard rule, but perhaps for new trainees, or when making some big changes to programing/methodology this would be a good place to start from and build.

There is a reason taking at least a day between similar exercises is common practice after all.

There is always this problem with forum posts, they will very, very rarely tell the whole story, I'm sure Josh has some good reason for saying that.

One thing that constantly amazes me with training is how many different and often seemingly contradictory methods have been used and produced results. There are few absolutes in this game.

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Nic Branson

They key word for me there is "feel." Your not being expected to perform at the same level an hour later as the body does need to recover but you should not always feel like you got hit by a truck after towing it up a hill.

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Cole Dano

Good way to put it into context Nic.

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Joshua Naterman
Josh is that really how you train? Asking for interest sake.

This is generally not how I train either gymnastics or weightlifting. In weightlifting if i'm doing 80% stuff, yeah I could prob do it again in an hour but, if we are going very heavy esp on squat I doubt it.

Same with gymnastics, as I normally warm up, prehab, then HS, Then skills apparatus work, then condition I'm normally spent by the end. Decent time of maybe 6 hours inbetween training no problem but def not an hour or so afterwards.

Oh yea, absolutely. That doesn't mean I really can lol! Like Nic and Cole have said, it's just about how you feel when you're walking back to work or something. If the effect of the workout wasn't tonic, meaning that you don't FEEL like you could work out again, you either worked too hard or didn't get enough food (or maybe both).

You are also working with a body that has steadily conditioned to the point where you can do a whole lot more than I can! The gymnastic fatigue is almost certainly a food issue. If you have an iPhone, iPod touch, or iPad I would suggest that you get the nutritiming app. It's 5 bucks and will let you look at exactly how your energy balance looks. You may be surprised at what you see during those heavy training sessions. This may very well help you get even better results than you are already getting. If all you have is computer, the advantage account (which I am using) lets you do the same thing for 7 bucks per month and lets you communicate with a sports RD that uses the program, as well as other health professionals. This is a very, very good thing for those of you who are personal trainers to invest in. There is a professional account for 250 per year that lets you manage unlimited clients and keep unlimited records. For health professionals, seriously, this is an easy way to do some very good things for your clients.

I am mostly referring to not wrecking your CNS and not doing SO much work that you feel dead for the rest of the day and then too sore to move at full speed for a few days after. As an athlete, those situations are not ideal. They DO happen sometimes, but it shouldn't be on purpose.

For O-lifting, you're following pure power rules. As soon as output drops 5% for two reps in a row you are done for the day. If you don't reach that point, that isn't a bad thing. Just means you could have done more.

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Philip Chubb

Josh, how do you tell when there is a power loss for Olifting? When the weight has to be lowered I'm guessing. Or when you miss two lifts in a row?

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Joshua Naterman
Josh, how do you tell when there is a power loss for Olifting? When the weight has to be lowered I'm guessing. Or when you miss two lifts in a row?

Honestly, the only objective measure would be performing the lifts on a force plate.

Since that's not an option, you could say "I'm going to clean & jerk 150kg for six singles" and if you notice that the fourth rep feels harder than the first three, you could take an extra few minutes of rest. If the fifth lift is still not quite right, you will be better off ending the day right there. If the fifth rep is back to max power, you keep the longer rest period for the sixth rep. If that is also max power, you can make a judgement call: A) Leave the gym feeling awesome, knowing you met your goal or B) GO for more singles until you feel a slight drop in power output. At that point, it would be time to end the workout. Option B is really for people who are very, very in tune with their body.

You have to remember that true power training is always at 100%. This could be pulling a lighter weight with maximum explosiveness (power snatch is usually the best for this, but power clean with moderate weight can be good too... it's just easy to throw the weight too high sometimes if you get it too light with the PC) and simply noting when you can't put quite the same "oomph" into a rep. This could be triples or something like that with absolute maximum explosiveness, and if you notice that the third rep is slightly weak, start doing doubles or singles. Usually, though, O-lifters seem to go for a training weight with singles, using everything else as a warm up. If the warm up actually gives the feeling that power output drops from one rep to another it is a poorly designed warm up. Well, it could also be an off day if it usually works well. That's a sign to do something else and come back tomorrow for the power training.

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Quick Start Test Smith

I've been hearing that power cleans are definitely something that non-olympic lifting athletes should be doing for power development. You guys seem to agree. What other olympic lifts do you think are good to do in conjunction with the WOD?

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Cole Dano

Josh you've mentioned the Nutritiming app numerous times lately. It would be great if you made a stand alone post on it giving a rundown of what it is and your experience with it. Sounds like it could help quite a few people.

I'm always happy when I see a product like this that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. I'm going to look into it.

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Joshua Naterman
Josh you've mentioned the Nutritiming app numerous times lately. It would be great if you made a stand alone post on it giving a rundown of what it is and your experience with it. Sounds like it could help quite a few people.

I'm always happy when I see a product like this that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. I'm going to look into it.

It is, in a word, lifechanging.

Seriously.

To be able to SEE where you are screwing up and then see how much better your energy balance is when you shift the calories around AND being able to do so precisely is the most useful training tool ever.

I've only been using it since April 6 or 7, and even with a fairly crappy diet due to the holiday season with Easter and all that I am getting great results. Amazing how small shifts in food intake make a large difference.

I really feel like there is just no way to put enough emphasis on how much this changes your training results except repeating it over and over lol! I will get pics up today or tomorrow in a separate post so that people can watch the visual changes over the next month or so.

Keep in mind that the visual results are simply a by-product of correct nutrition, there is no caloric restriction whatsoever. Simply perfect energy balance.

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Cole Dano

Great Josh. There's a reason I want you to fly over here!

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Philip Chubb
I've been hearing that power cleans are definitely something that non-olympic lifting athletes should be doing for power development. You guys seem to agree. What other olympic lifts do you think are good to do in conjunction with the WOD?

If you can get a coach to teach you, power snatches are awesome as well. The bar travels a further distance and it's a more complex exercise according to Poliquins scale. Another cool idea is power cleans but you only use 25 lb plates to load the bar. Then the bar is much lower which also makes more distance need to be travelled. Of course, you could always find a box to stand on. I'm not a fan of the hang cleans or snatches. Also not a fan of the full lifts unless you really like them or are a lifter and have time to train the form.

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Philip Chubb
Josh, how do you tell when there is a power loss for Olifting? When the weight has to be lowered I'm guessing. Or when you miss two lifts in a row?

Honestly, the only objective measure would be performing the lifts on a force plate.

Since that's not an option, you could say "I'm going to clean & jerk 150kg for six singles" and if you notice that the fourth rep feels harder than the first three, you could take an extra few minutes of rest. If the fifth lift is still not quite right, you will be better off ending the day right there. If the fifth rep is back to max power, you keep the longer rest period for the sixth rep. If that is also max power, you can make a judgement call: A) Leave the gym feeling awesome, knowing you met your goal or B) GO for more singles until you feel a slight drop in power output. At that point, it would be time to end the workout. Option B is really for people who are very, very in tune with their body.

You have to remember that true power training is always at 100%. This could be pulling a lighter weight with maximum explosiveness (power snatch is usually the best for this, but power clean with moderate weight can be good too... it's just easy to throw the weight too high sometimes if you get it too light with the PC) and simply noting when you can't put quite the same "oomph" into a rep. This could be triples or something like that with absolute maximum explosiveness, and if you notice that the third rep is slightly weak, start doing doubles or singles. Usually, though, O-lifters seem to go for a training weight with singles, using everything else as a warm up. If the warm up actually gives the feeling that power output drops from one rep to another it is a poorly designed warm up. Well, it could also be an off day if it usually works well. That's a sign to do something else and come back tomorrow for the power training.

I overlooked your response by accident but thank you! I thought it would require force plates to really get an accurate measurement. I naturally tend to lower the reps if I feel it start to get weak but now I know to terminate the exercise if it continues that way. Thank you!

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Nic Branson

If you have a very good training partner you can also time them. Not an easy method by any means but it is another way.

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Joshua Naterman

That's true, interesting idea. I know that works extremely well for sprints, not sure about explosive lifts. I would think that power lifts would benefit from this though!

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Nic Scheelings

Ah yes that makes a lot more sense.

I think you are definitely right on calorie intake, sometimes I find myself waking up in the middle of the night to et. That can't be good when your body interrupts sleep, because it say I need food. I've taken to making sure I eat before bed.

By the way when we train if we are missing weights that you should make generally my coach will make you go back down and build up again. Example about 3 months ago I had a shitty training, missed snatching 90 a couple of times. we dropped to 70 and built back up again, the second time it was no problem. Although the sport it is power based sometimes your skill execution goes to shit. In general we never really train to a level where you would experience a power drop in training. My Coach's theory is always do your best lifts in competition, so rarely would we push in training to that point where you would experience a drop in power. Many other's like the chinese and bulgarians would push way harder than us tho, but they have the luxury of not having to have jobs, in Aus the best lifters all still need to work for a living so the most they can manage to train is maybe 8 X a week. Not a lot by elite lifting standards. Tho there is this one freak at my gym who trains 3 X a week if he's lucky and snatches 155-160 C & J 200.

Tho we did do a couple of weeks of Bulgarian style training which was really high volume, it was fun and left me pretty wrecked, but it was only a couple of weeks as my coach said we would not handle more than that.

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Nic Branson
That's true, interesting idea. I know that works extremely well for sprints, not sure about explosive lifts. I would think that power lifts would benefit from this though!

It does work, lab tested. Being in a lab we had, accelerometers, force plates and a stop watch. If you're not moving as fast then you'r not accelerating the bar as much which is less power.

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Philip Chubb

Demus, I liked your post there. Can't forget sometimes a bad lift is just a sudden burst of bad form. For some reason, working my way up also helps me. Even if its going from 160 to 165.

I love the bulgarian training. I use that approach in my general everyday training with 3 times a day of strength. Works like a charm.

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