seiyafan Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 The other day I was playing with the lat pulldown machine and I finally realized why my pull-ups are still weak. Before I would never touch a machine because I figured if you can do 5-7 pull-ups a set for a couple of sets why bother with the machine. So I put my body weight (160lb) on the machine and only managed to pull about my eye level (not even chin level). Then I thought to myself what's gonna be heaviest weight I can pull down to my nipple line, to my surprise I could only do 120lb max for one rep. Well, that explains it a lot, right? I even tried to pull the bar all the way down to my thigh and for that I would need half of my body weight to do it. So the lesson is I will be spending the next couple of weeks if not months to try to pull the bar to my nipple line with my body weight to make my pull-ups more solid. What do you think guys?Another question is once the bar passes the mid chest level, are different muscle groups being engaged? Because one time I felt a slight discomfort in my elbow with only 120 lb. I had never had any elbow issues doing pull-ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Li Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Yeah, I don't know why pulling your bodyweight in a lat pulldown machine is harder than doing bodyweight pull-ups as when I first used a lat pulldown machine I could barely do one underhand grip bodyweight pulldown when I knew I could do 5 chin-ups at that time. I'm sure the reason isn't because these "bodyweight" pull-ups do not include the weight of the forearms and hands because the weight of both hands and forearms do not account for much of the bodyweight (maybe only 5-10%). Progressing with the lat pulldown machine should definitely help increase strength or reps for the pull-ups, but I think you should stick with your pull-ups since you can already do 5-7 pull-ups and continuing with those should increase reps over time. Do a couple sets every day or 3 times a week or whatever works for your body. If your still stagnating, then maybe try weighted pull-ups where you can only do 1-4 reps before failure for a time and then switch back to bodyweight pull-ups to test if your reps have increased. Try mixing up your pulling workouts with rowing exercises as well. I've never stagnated at this rep range before so these are all just guesses that might help you. Someone else here may give you better tips. As for your question about passing the bar below mid chest, I think you are doing a muscle up transition after the pulldown because a full ROM pulldown/pull-up is where the bar reaches the mid chest and not at or below the nipples. So yes that engages different muscles which will be the triceps and so that's maybe why you feel discomfort in your elbows because muscle-up transitions heavily stress the triceps tendon and outer elbow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Pull ups activate your core musculature more, and this allows the other muscles to work harder.The bar is good for practicing muscle up transition, but you have to make sure you don't let the shoulders roll forward. Take your time, this is a long term goal to perform with near full bodyweight.If you stop doing pull ups you will lose strength. Just use the lat machine as assistance work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnj23 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The counterbalancing effect is why the lat pulldown is harder lb for lb. It becomes apparent when you start exceeding your bodyweight, and you are forced to be strapped down in some manner. This is never an issue with weighted chins/pulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Branson Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Speaking of pull-down stations at one point I came across a Life Fitness pull down station that instead of having you seated you were standing and it anchored your feet. Nice thing to try on these is to take the entire stack and as you/ after you pull down pull your feet up and get full abdominal activation with the elbows to the knees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Malin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The other day I was playing with the lat pulldown machine and I finally realized why my pull-ups are still weak. Before I would never touch a machine because I figured if you can do 5-7 pull-ups a set for a couple of sets why bother with the machine. So I put my body weight (160lb) on the machine and only managed to pull about my eye level (not even chin level). Then I thought to myself what's gonna be heaviest weight I can pull down to my nipple line, to my surprise I could only do 120lb max for one rep. Well, that explains it a lot, right? I even tried to pull the bar all the way down to my thigh and for that I would need half of my body weight to do it. So the lesson is I will be spending the next couple of weeks if not months to try to pull the bar to my nipple line with my body weight to make my pull-ups more solid. What do you think guys?Another question is once the bar passes the mid chest level, are different muscle groups being engaged? Because one time I felt a slight discomfort in my elbow with only 120 lb. I had never had any elbow issues doing pull-ups.The most glaring thing is that your pull up volume is way too low. Coach's athletes will pump out muscle ups or rope climbs just for warm-up. So it's hugely important to get dips and pull ups to be second nature. There are some great things you can do with the bar (Poliquin has a great back-building circuit), but as Josh said it should be more assistance work. You'll benefit more by building volume with pull ups as part of your daily warmup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Sommer Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 ... The most glaring thing is that your pull up volume is way too low ... Coach's athletes will pump out muscle ups or rope climbs just for warm-up ... it's hugely important to get dips and pull ups to be second nature ... as Josh said it should be more assistance work ... You'll benefit more by building volume with pull ups as part of your daily warmup.Excellent point.Yours in Fitness,Coach Sommer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uzeeh Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Hmm, thank you for the information, Cory! So you would suggest to kind of "grease the groove" with pullups, doing them for warm-up with easy sets and not near to failure, while slowly making the volume bigger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Malin Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Hmm, thank you for the information, Cory! So you would suggest to kind of "grease the groove" with pullups, doing them for warm-up with easy sets and not near to failure, while slowly making the volume bigger?Easy is a waste of time. I'd say to push your envelope by 20% each of the four workout days when you include these as supersets with no rest. Done correctly, you will feel energized. Form and maximal contraction are vital here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uzeeh Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 What do you mean by "push the envelope by 20%"? Sorry, my English is not good Do you mean to increase volume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Malin Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Push yourself just a little more than you think you're capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seiyafan Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 you are right, I have not pushed myself hard enough on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Branson Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Make it challenging to do but not difficult...there is a difference. Challenging being that you can complete it with effort, difficult being you might fail....avoid the latter 90+% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Malin Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Make it challenging to do but not difficult...there is a difference. Challenging being that you can complete it with effort, difficult being you might fail....avoid the latter 90+% of the time.Much more clear explanation of what I was trying to say. Thanks, Nic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Branson Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Anytime One other thing. I often like to add in something like this as one set during the rest breaks. Be surprised how fast the volume builds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seiyafan Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 Another thing I forgot to mention, I gained 20 pounds in the last three months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Branson Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 ding ding ding....we have a big reason for decrease on pull up performance. Gotta keep up with them during the process or they will lag behind and need to be caught up in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uzeeh Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Actually, Nic, I did that one-set-during-breaks thing accidentally today. I was supposed to do the thing Cory mentioned, doing them in the warm-up, but I totally forgot, so I did my all box squat sets before I remembered again. At that, I started doing sets of fits chest-to-bar slow deadhang chin-ups between each set of the other exercises today (push press and cleans, my wrist injury is keeping me away from gymnastics). It felt really surprisingly easy, even though the sets themselves were quite hard (with the style I did them today, my max would have been about seven, and that's with the last one really jerking). And even better than that was how good I felt afterwards! I did 8 sets of 5 chin-ups, and I feel like I want to do some more now. Really energizing.So, thank you, both Nic and Cory! I will definitely keep going like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Branson Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Glad it worked for you !! Thanks for the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 The counterbalancing effect is why the lat pulldown is harder lb for lb. It becomes apparent when you start exceeding your bodyweight, and you are forced to be strapped down in some manner. This is never an issue with weighted chins/pulls.That's true also, good point. I have to say though, I was always able to do as many or more reps of heavy lat pulldowns at any given bw+ load. I just remember getting tired in the hip flexors, it sucks to have to hold yourself down and having to move so that the cable doesn't mark up your face at the same time. Always liked weighted pull ups more, felt like I could work my muscles better and I didn't have all that lat pulldown hassle you mentioned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seiyafan Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 Lately I added deadlift and barbell row to my routine, so I am cutting back on pull ups. Another reason added.I am sorry for all the excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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