Front lever: why do we need a flat back?

[triquetrum]

The title pretty much says it all

Is there a non-aesthetic purpose to keeping a flat back in the front lever? I mean, I think I understand the concept of scapular retraction because it engages the back muscles more (right?), but then why do I need to flatten my back?

If you look at pictures of John Gill and some other old time strongmen performing the front lever, you'll see that they didn't flatten out their backs - and John Gill could perform a one arm front lever too. So I'm wondering if flattening the back makes it harder or engages the core more or something else.

I'm not going to start doing it with a rounded back...but I am merely curious. That's it! Just curious, nothing else . Would it make a difference to the muscles affected or the forces, leverage, etc? Thanks.

[RatioFitness]

Because you want to strengthen scapular retraction which is important for shoulder health and balance.

[triquetrum]

Because you want to strengthen scapular retraction which is important for shoulder health and balance.

:? But, am I not strengthening scapular retraction by simply...retracting my scapulae? I don't see why flattening the back would positively influence scapular retraction. If anything, I noticed that flattening the back makes it harder to retract the scapulae.

I can definitely get a deeper retraction when I don't flatten, like in the FL tuck.

[RatioFitness]

Are you talking about flattening the upper or lower back?

[triquetrum]

Ah, sorry for the confusion. I am talking about flattening the lower back, i.e. lumbar spine.

Here is an excellent demonstration of what I am talking about:

The man in that video clearly retracts his scapulae but he does not flatten his lower (lumbar) spine.

[Joshua Naterman]

You need to flatten your back to get the most strength out of the position and movements that use that position. That is the final destination.

Without a straightened upper t-spine you don't get optimal activation of the upper back, which means your shoulder is not as stable as it should be, which in turn means that your strength is inherently limited. More importantly, John Gill freely admits that he was never a strong presser. This deficiency may be a symptom of never learning a perfect position. Without a perfect position, we can't build the scapular stability that leads to shoulder stability that leads to extreme upper body pressing strength. That's the thing that you may not be fully aware of.

I hope that makes sense!

There is also the injury prevention aspect, but that is closely related to the strength. The injuries are just unfortunate side effects of strength training with poor position. Individual anatomy and movement patterns will determine to what extent and how quickly injuries occur, but eventually they will always show up with bad movement.

With some people the injuries come quick, and with some like me it takes 5+ years of abuse in a bad position... unfortunately with so much abuse the possibility of a full recovery is... not 100%. I may be permanently limited by poor training caused by my lack of understanding of the above concepts. There is no way to know, but at the very least recovery will take a long time and a lot of effort, during which I have to artificially limit my strength work to what I can safely perform with perfect form. That is what everyone should do, but because my recovery will take a long time (and already has) my progress will be extremely slow for a long time. It should be possible for an awful lot of people to surpass me before I am ready to train with a normal strength training progression again.

Addendum: Your inability to fully retract with a flat L-spine should clue you in to the fact that you have some serious weaknesses in your lats and core. The flat position is much, much harder and requires the traps to work much harder and engage from top to bottom. With an arched back you are relying on the mid and upper traps, with the lower traps not doing much. It is in fact very possible that a weakness in the lower traps, relative to the mid and upper traps, is at least partially responsible for why your body likes to arch the lower back, but there are many other things that could be going on as well. The increase in difficulty should a) help you realize that you can build even more strength in the position, and b) point out exactly where your weaknesses are.

[Nic Branson]

You can be beastly strong with poor technique. The body naturally finds a movement pattern that wil allow us to perform the moment we are trying to perform. It is not always correct and it does increase our injury risk typically. At minimum it starts to limit our foundation and any learning progression from that point becomes much more difficult. The absolute worst is anything that creates asymmetric movement patterns. Those are our greatest indicators of injury risk with bad movement.

[triquetrum]

Thank you, Joshua! That definitely clears things up.

All that said, how does one train the body to stop arching. If my lower traps are the weak link causing my body to want to arch, do I just solve it by continuing on with flat tuck work? I have a good, strong 63 second rounded FL tuck but when I went to move on to a new SSC cycle with the flat tuck, I find myself just struggling to flatten my back. I originally thought I had the flat tuck for a week but a friend proved that I was actually compensating for strength by moving my entire body above horizontal. Now, I just literally just hang there in the FL tuck and every time I try to flatten my back it immediately fails and I fall to a hang. The trick seems to be to go from the rounded tuck and just thrust the chest out and send the hips down to get the flat back, but it isn't working.

If my lower traps are the problem, then I'm guessing that these repeated attempts aren't doing a lot of good. I've been at it for 2 full weeks now. I'm in a rut because it seems kind of useless to go back to the rounded tuck with 63 seconds. I've been attempting front pulls and negatives in a flat back position, but it actually causes momentary pain in my lateral deltoids when I get close to horizontal. So now I've just been holding back and working on pull ups, rounded FL rows, rounded front pulls, FL statics, and hollow body positioning. I don't know where to go from here.

Anyways, thanks for clearing things up! It seems that I am on a path to injury here if I don't stop. The flat tuck front pulls have been hurting my lateral deltoids but I didn't think that the lower traps were also a problem. I think I will focus on my manna MSH and handstand work at this point - they seem and feel the safest for the shoulder girdle and back.

[seiyafan]

Ah, sorry for the confusion. I am talking about flattening the lower back, i.e. lumbar spine.

Here is an excellent demonstration of what I am talking about:

The man in that video clearly retracts his scapulae but he does not flatten his lower (lumbar) spine.

His lower back looks very flat to me. :? Am I seeing something wrong? Are you talking about his butt sticking out?

[triquetrum]

Ah, sorry for the confusion. I am talking about flattening the lower back, i.e. lumbar spine.

Here is an excellent demonstration of what I am talking about:

The man in that video clearly retracts his scapulae but he does not flatten his lower (lumbar) spine.

His lower back looks very flat to me. :? Am I seeing something wrong? Are you talking about his butt sticking out?

I think you are seeing it wrong but I am definitely no expert. Compare it to this:

xb5EuzqU2jU

[Nic Branson]

The fact that you have some pain is an indication of dysfunction. Try a couple things.

Do a handful of nice slow strict wall extensions. Any pain? Any movement issues completing it properly?

Hanging shrugs. Aim for for full and complete scapular retraction. Any issues? If you can have someone watch these to ensure both sides are firing it would be even better.

[mikelmarion]

You need to flatten your back to get the most strength out of the position and movements that use that position. That is the final destination.

Without a straightened upper t-spine you don't get optimal activation of the upper back, which means your shoulder is not as stable as it should be, which in turn means that your strength is inherently limited. More importantly, John Gill freely admits that he was never a strong presser. This deficiency may be a symptom of never learning a perfect position. Without a perfect position, we can't build the scapular stability that leads to shoulder stability that leads to extreme upper body pressing strength. That's the thing that you may not be fully aware of.

I hope that makes sense!

There is also the injury prevention aspect, but that is closely related to the strength. The injuries are just unfortunate side effects of strength training with poor position. Individual anatomy and movement patterns will determine to what extent and how quickly injuries occur, but eventually they will always show up with bad movement.

Would rows held for time be better for strength and hypertrophy for the scaps than doing the row movement? And is retracting the scaps as simple as squezing your shoulderblades back as far as possible?

With some people the injuries come quick, and with some like me it takes 5+ years of abuse in a bad position... unfortunately with so much abuse the possibility of a full recovery is... not 100%. I may be permanently limited by poor training caused by my lack of understanding of the above concepts. There is no way to know, but at the very least recovery will take a long time and a lot of effort, during which I have to artificially limit my strength work to what I can safely perform with perfect form. That is what everyone should do, but because my recovery will take a long time (and already has) my progress will be extremely slow for a long time. It should be possible for an awful lot of people to surpass me before I am ready to train with a normal strength training progression again.

Addendum: Your inability to fully retract with a flat L-spine should clue you in to the fact that you have some serious weaknesses in your lats and core. The flat position is much, much harder and requires the traps to work much harder and engage from top to bottom. With an arched back you are relying on the mid and upper traps, with the lower traps not doing much. It is in fact very possible that a weakness in the lower traps, relative to the mid and upper traps, is at least partially responsible for why your body likes to arch the lower back, but there are many other things that could be going on as well. The increase in difficulty should a) help you realize that you can build even more strength in the position, and b) point out exactly where your weaknesses are.

Would rows held for time be better for strength and hypertrophy for the scaps than doing the row movement? And is retracting the scaps as simple as squezing your shoulderblades back as far as possible?

[triquetrum]

The fact that you have some pain is an indication of dysfunction. Try a couple things.

Do a handful of nice slow strict wall extensions. Any pain? Any movement issues completing it properly?

Hanging shrugs. Aim for for full and complete scapular retraction. Any issues? If you can have someone watch these to ensure both sides are firing it would be even better.

I have nothing to hang on but I always include these in my prehab workouts and warm ups with varying grips and have never had issues.

As for the wall extensions, I had to try a bit to keep my elbows from moving off the wall through the entire range of motion. Otherwise, it was also fine.

Of note is that my german hangs are almost vertical. I never have experienced pain with them. Solid 60 seconds.

My pulling power is also at an beginner-ish level. I can knock off 11 pull ups maximum and 7 tucked FL rows.

[Nic Branson]

Take some time at least one week and work those wall extensions everyday, focusing on pulling those shoulder blades together as you do the movement. Do the hanging shrugs where you focus fully on bringing the scaps back then fire the lat's and let them pull you towards a front lever. Keep the scaps set, if they move you went to far. Then start the FL series from base one and concentrate on your shoulder and scap positioning.

How is your abdominal strength? It is likely fine but could also lead to you falling out of position.

Shoulders back only is not enough. Think back and down. You want the rhomboids and traps fully activating. This is a simplified statement as they obviously move more and are placed differently based on movement, but down and back to set them hits Thr typical weak muscles and packs them into a very stable position.

[triquetrum]

Take some time at least one week and work those wall extensions everyday, focusing on pulling those shoulder blades together as you do the movement. Do the hanging shrugs where you focus fully on bringing the scaps back then fire the lat's and let them pull you towards a front lever. Keep the scaps set, if they move you went to far. Then start the FL series from base one and concentrate on your shoulder and scap positioning.

How is your abdominal strength? It is likely fine but could also lead to you falling out of position.

Shoulders back only is not enough. Think back and down. You want the rhomboids and traps fully activating. This is a simplified statement as they obviously move more and are placed differently based on movement, but down and back to set them hits Thr typical weak muscles and packs them into a very stable position.

:oops: It's mistakes like these that just make me feel really unprepared! I actually took the time to work on the very base FSP's (hollow, plank, dead hang, etc) many, many months ago but somewhere along the line I think everyone just hits a breaking point with their patience and the ego conquers all. I took a 7 month break from gymnastics but I anxiously waived aside the base material when I got back.

I never brought the shoulders down but now when I try it back AND down, it's uncomfortable. I also stumbled upon Slizz's "packing the neck" idea in another thread...which, needless to say, I also haven't been doing. My abdominal strength is decent, I think. I can knock off about 5 x 7 sets of hanging leg raises. How's that?

I will definitely be starting from base one again with the rounded tuck. But I still want to figure out this whole flat back thing. What is the trick to getting the flat back? I've spent so much time just mimicking the front lever in front of my bathroom mirror trying to figure out the best way to bring the body into a flat back. The best way simply seems to first set the scapulae to get a flat upper back. Then to get the flat lower back I just flex the abs like when you're trying to show them off. From there, I pack my neck in and voila, an entire flat back. Is this right? I may just be overanalyzing it :oops:

Thanks for all your help and to everyone else! I sure hope some other beginners find this thread

[triquetrum]

Would rows held for time be better for strength and hypertrophy for the scaps than doing the row movement? And is retracting the scaps as simple as squezing your shoulderblades back as far as possible?

I cannot answer your first question, but Canthar's post below yours is good advice. Retract the scapulae not only backwards, but downwards too. I guess that "downwards" part is something a lot of us have been missing.

[Nic Branson]

Whichever que's work for you to get into the position use them. As you practice and get a feel for the form it will become easier. Bit of self discovery on it will be much better then being over coached over a forum where none of us can actually see or interact with your movements.

In regards to the abdominal strength it sounds good. Just no leaning backwards with the head or shoulders. Slow controlled reps.

[Nic Branson]

Would rows held for time be better for strength and hypertrophy for the scaps than doing the row movement? And is retracting the scaps as simple as squezing your shoulderblades back as far as possible?

Back and down, back and down. This is how the row starts. If your elbows bend before the shoulders are set then you started it incorrectly. Set the scaps then engage the lats more and allow the elbows to bend.

Slow tempo strict bulgarian rows. You can hold the row for 2-3 count at the start and end. Foot supported and super strict will wake those muscles up.

[Joshua Naterman]

Bulgarian rows are very, very hard if done correctly because they use virtually no lat force at all. It is virtually 100% traps and rear delts.It is probably going to work best for most people if they try to learn Bulgarians with bands or a free-motion machine first and really master the foot supported rows with proper form on the rings before trying the Bulgarians, and starting the Bulgarians with a very inclined body position.

The slow tempo Canthar suggests is very important, it is impossible to learn this movement if you are starting off quickly. It is simply too easy for the wrong muscles to kick in and do the work.