Calling all slizzardmen- Proper push ups?

[ScottTho]

I've been struggling with shoulder instability for a long time, and have been attacking it from all angles. I've seen slizz's video on shoulder flexibility and try to get in a daily session of stretching, and also do 2 sets of 20 external rotations with a theraband thing twice a day. Unfortunately, I'm still having problems. Currently the only exercises I do are pushups and pullups (very few due to my limiting factor), in addition to basic core stability/strength exercises. One question I have is regarding proper pushup technique though. I was under the impression that one should have the shoulders retracted in all pushing exercises, yet stumbled upon this video and he definitely has a shoulders-forward body position. Thoughts?

Scott

[Zhul]

If you really want to stabilize your shoulders you have to throw some more mobility work. Try

and

. Scapula stabilization is crucial for shoulder health. It will take some time but believe me, it's worth it! You'll be amazed how much this will boost your overall performance and body composition.

As for the push-up position and execution, this is definately the way to go(considering my own experience). Keeping this hollow position will really teach you to keep your body tense while performing, which will give you the ability to exert more power. Get in a hollow, squeeze your core and buttocks. I always finish my push-ups with a maximum protracted scapula to engage serratus anterior as much as possible. It is another important factor for shoulder and scapula health and stability. However, dont overthink it. Just keep in mind that the more of the body involved, the more the beneficial the movement become.

[Zhul]

Forgot to mention, if you want any results, you have to balance your pressing and pulling. As you mentioned, you're doing push-ups and pull-ups which is not the best setup for improvement. You have to balance your horizontal pressing(push-ups) with some horizontal pulling work. Rows of some kind should do the work for you. Same goes for pull-ups(vertical plane pulling(overhead)). HSPUs/HeSPUs are the most appropriate pattern here, but they could be too demanding for your abilities right now, considering your shoulder problems. If you're not able to execute them or any other overhead work, you should put some dip variation. However, progressing to HeSPU as fast as possible is vital for shoulder development, so keep that in mind.

[Joshua Naterman]

For the progression to safe handstand work and later safe HeSPU/HSPU work you will need to work on thoracic mobility, scapular activation and mobility work with a straight spine that does not move while the scapulae move (If you watch the two videos linked, you will see that Ido maintains a very straight body. There is some slight forward movement of the neck in one or two exercises but he is fighting hard against that. His body alignment is the same as a proper handstand, which is a hollow position with an extended upper t-spine and c-spine and completely open shoulders and hips. The videos are helpful if you are able to control your position enough. If not, you will simply have to work on basic body shape first. Hollow holds and arch holds are the start.

As for the push up video, there's nothing wrong with what is shown. There is scapular retraction and protraction happening... it is hard to see because the demonstrator moves so fast, but it is there. If you can't keep a hollow body shape in a push up, you need to start with scapular push ups in a hollow position and then slowly add elbow ROM to the scapular push up. That will end up in a nice, smooth push up with steady scapular retraction and protraction.

[ScottTho]

I appreciate the responses. My previous understanding was that you should keep the scapula retracted throughout the pushup, based on my knowledge of proper bench pressing form. I assumed that would carry over to a pushup. Why does it not? They seem like basically the same motion, so why does proper bench press form advocate for retracted scapulae but pushups advocate for starting retracted and ending protracted? Just curious.

I didn't realize scapular stablization was so critical. I thought my issue was weak external rotators and had basically just been doing external rotations (and making no progress). Since you both mentioned scapular stability, I've been adding in scap pushups, scap pullups, and bent over DB scap retractions. I've also thrown in DB Cuban rotations. I feel that my shoulder is too weak/instable right now to work on HSPUs, and am even dropping pushups/pullups to focus only on getting my shoulder back to full strength. I also haven't really worked the hollow body hold, and have started working that as well so as to perfect my body shape while doing scap pushups and to better prepare me for when I start incorporating pushups again.

Any feedback on my plan going forward or other advice?

[Joshua Naterman]

You CAN do push ups retracted the whole time if your hands are slightly wider than your shoulders, and it is a bit different. You won't be training serratus anterior very well and you won't be training scapular stability anywhere near as well either, but sometimes this is an important starting point.

I wouldn't drop push ups or pull ups if you can do even 1 rep with a reasonably decent hollow. Just start working on your form, keep the volume somewhat low (lower than your hollow work and scapular mobility work) and you will be able to adopt proper form without giving up strength gains you have made so far.

I definitely think that mastering form is the way to go, that is the right focus.

"proper" bench press form... I don't want to get into that. First off, bench press is an exercise that was invented to sell benches. It's not even 80 years old. Second, the pressure on the scaps from lying on the bench shuts down a lot of the musculature and prevents truly proper scapular motion (especially with heavier weights). Third, proper form = what lets you move the most weight. With scaps retracted the whole time you have a shorter distance to move the bar, and mechanical advantage is better. This also involves wider hand placement as well, which keeps the shoulder in the socket and further reduces bar travel distance. The thoracic arching further reduces bar travel. Together this allows you to move the most weight.

There are several different ways to bench, but powerlifting form is becoming accepted as the safest for reason # 2 and is favored for many because of reason 3.

Push up form is really dependent on what you want to get out of your push up. In the real world, especially during dynamic and explosive activities, the shoulder blades move forward and backwards and all over the place. Why on earth would you handicap yourself by not training the muscles that power this movement? That's what you would be doing if you stayed retracted all the time. Then there's the lack of carryover to GB elements...

[Cole Dano]

This natural movement of the shoulder blades was something I figured out on my own, just self studying the movement and looking at human anatomy.

Then as I wanted to up my yoga teaching skills, I was taught by a well known teacher NOT to do this! I have to assume it's being taught like that because yoga students tend to be weak.

This along with a few other choice tidbits from said teacher led to years of shoulder trouble. The problem with keeping your shoulders pinned back in an elbow at the side push up is it pulls the shoulder out of socket at the top. If you do it the other way around and stay protracted it stresses the shoulder joint at the bottom.

There is a very natural movement cycle of the scapula called the Gleno-Humeral rhythm

That said like Slizz states, build the stability first keeping shoulders pinned back. Then add a gymnastic plank at the top and protract. After awhile this just becomes a natural gradual movement happening during the entire course of the Push Up.