not making progress

[itisme]

hey guys

im doing a killroy routine wich looks like this:

FSP: (imo those exercises are way too easy, but slizardmans advice was to start at the very beginning because of forearm pain and he knows way more about training than me so its ok for me)

60s plank

60s reverse plank

60s perfect hollow hold with hands over your head

60s arch hold in the superman flying position

60s Parallel Bar support.

60s chin up grip dead hang

FBE:

day1 = 3x5 elevated feet push ups , 3x5 elevated feet rows

day2 = 3x5 dips , 3x5 curls

day3 = 3x5 chin ups , 3x20 wall runs

im do this program in a ssc, and im in week 8, after week 10 i would like to take a back off week and start a new ssc with harder exercises.

so my problem is after those 8 weeks i dont feel like i have gained any strenght.

maybe the intensity of the exercises are too low?

or not enough work time?

or not enough reps?

maybe any of you guys can help me

thx bye

[Aaron Griffin]

maybe the intensity of the exercises are too low?

It's probably this. Did you choose exercises where 3-5 reps was all you could do? Or were you doing exercises that you could easily do for 10 or more reps?

[itisme]

my reps varying at any exercise.

for example:

im doing 3x5 with the elevated feet push ups, but i think im able to do like 8x5.

with chin ups im doing also 3x5, but there im only really strong on the first set where i feel like i can do 7-10 reps but hardly kick out 5 reps on the third set.

whith the dips the 3x5 are optimal i think, because i have to work hard to do the 5 reps on each set. (but also at that exercise i didnt think that i have gained any strenght)

so i dont know exactly wich sets and reps i should do to achieve optimal results and tho be honest it confuses me to do other sets and other reps for every exercises, you know what i mean?

it feels like the last 8 weeks was only a waste of time

[RatioFitness]

Are you supposed to do a SSC with bent arm exercises? Doesn't seem right to me.

[itisme]

well maybe its not the idea behind it to use the ssc for fbe, but as you can see i already have problems to find the right reps and sets for every exercise, so i dont want to care also about when to add weight/varying body position.

but maybe is exactly that the problem that im not gaining strenght and i have to add weight to a fsb exercise as soon as i can kick out a sixth rep on each set of my 3x5 routine?

dont know, all i want is gain strenght and keep the motivation alive.

[Alvaro Antolinez]

yep you can apply SSC to any exercise, but once you begin with a weight, exercise, reps or sets that are challenging at the beginning of the cicle.

The prerequisites are first of all to be sure you have the strength to begin with more advanced exercises like planche, front lever or back lever(people like me were jumping to FL without being able to hold a plank for 20 secs :oops: ). If you can do them with out being tired(the prereq), you can begin with harder variations, like german hang, planche leans, ring supports or Lsits, shoulder stand on rings, manna, etc....

Slizzard always warns about not trying too hard(at first) with straight arm exercises, because if you are already strong, your muscles will be far more capable than your tendons o ligaments(you´ll feel that you are strong enough for a cross but you´ll be risking a severe elbow or shoulder injury), as it happened to him. The connective tissue heals and grows very slowly(months not weeks) compared with the muscle, you must proceed with calm to improve it.

So if you are already strong with exercises like pull ups or dips or so, you can push them with out fear (relatively of course), go for more reps and then for a harder variation (or however you wish). I have noticed (also read somewhere, but don´t trust me much on this) that at beginner and intermediate strength levels, a higher volume (or at least switching between low volume-high effort, higher volume-somewhat lower effort like you´ll see at the WODs) works better than just 3x5. Maybe aiming for 8x5 or 10x5 before changing to a harder exercise will give you better results. Of course as your bench is different than your weighted pull up or dead lift, your numbers will be different in different exercises too.

[Blairbob]

so my problem is after those 8 weeks i dont feel like i have gained any strenght.

maybe the intensity of the exercises are too low?

Well, SSC can be done with bent arm exercises such as FBE's.

Ideally, in the 3rd phase of a SSC, the underload cycle, you should feel pretty good.

SSC should last 8-12 weeks and run as an Overload stage, a Loading stage, and an Underloading stage. During an overload stage, you should feel your working hard (hell, it's only 50%of1rm anyways). By loading, it should be a lot easier. Underloading, allows you to rest and prepare for your next overload cycle-stage.

After your SSC is done be it 8 or 12 week, test yourself. If you have not improved your max reps with each FBE from before the beginning of the SSC, something has gone awry.

Prerequisite WU drills isn't mean to be terribly difficult. In fact, this stuff is pretty easy in general though the German Hang is quite a stretch on the shoulders. One arm side planks can be tricky though but the planks and hang should be easy-peesy. Hollow and arch may be tricky or not. Sometimes they are for beginning or weaker gymnasts but in general, they should be fairly easy.

[itisme]

ya i know how the ssc work or i have to say "should" work.

maybe its to soon to say nah ssc dont work for me, but the overload-loading-underload thing is a good approach, because it didnt happen to me yet.

neither with fsp nor with fbe work.

for the fsp example:

....at ~30sec i feel the tension and at ~50sec its going to be hard, but it stays exactly like that from the beginning.

and with the fbe its the same, dont feel stronger at any exercise.

[Blairbob]

Finish the cycle and test your FBE's.

You may just want to go with the Killroy70 program as it sort of linear progresses bent arm strength.

One week you might do 3x3, the next 3x4, the next 3x5, etc until eventually you are hitting 5x5. Reps are not done@50% of 1rm.

[itisme]

i know that fbe work is not done at 50% so as you can read in my second post i did 3x5 dips and have to work hard on every set to kick out 5 reps...and thats for the last 8 weeks => no progress in my opinion.

[itisme]

normal diet, im not a big eater, i eat when im hungry.

mostly smoked meat, bread, fried chicken, some vegetables and after every workout a shake of 250ml milk, berries, a banana, honey and natural peanut butter.

[itisme]

maybe, but i dont want size i want strenght =)

[itisme]

my diet is for sure not the best, but neither that bad.

i consume enough protein, carbs and fats, maybe im wrong but i dont think its about the diet that i didnt gain strenght.

[itisme]

maybe my body needs higher reps and shorter rest time?

[Quick Start Test Smith]

itisme,

are you following the WODs or doing your own thing?

Getting enough sleep?

Eating enough at the right times (every 3 hours if possible)?

Are you working hard enough (are the wods actually challenging? are you scaling down too much or too little?)? etc.

What are your strength goals? What was your strength before you started training for the specific goals and what is your strength now?

[Aaron Griffin]

maybe my body needs higher reps and shorter rest time?

Nope, I agree that it's likely your diet. What is your height, weight, and age? And how many calories do you eat in a day. If you don't know, you should use a food tracking website like myfitnesspal for 2 weeks, to see how much you eat in a day.

[itisme]

im the typical skinny fat ectomorph.

im 25, 187cm, 68kg.

i eat 1500-2000kcal a day depends on how hard i work during the day.

im doing my own routine, but maybe change to wod if i have enough space/equipment to follow it properly.

my longterm strenght goals are a full pl, bl, fl...the stuff everyone here train for =)

shortterm goals, free handstand, pistols, proper tucked pl, bl, fl for 30 secs, muscle up (wich im maybe already able to do but cannot test because lack of proper bar)

my strenght is the same for the last 2-3 years.

[Nilan]

im the typical skinny fat ectomorph.

im 25, 187cm, 68kg.

i eat 1500-2000kcal a day depends on how hard i work during the day.

im doing my own routine, but maybe change to wod if i have enough space/equipment to follow it properly.

my longterm strenght goals are a full pl, bl, fl...the stuff everyone here train for =)

shortterm goals, free handstand, pistols, proper tucked pl, bl, fl for 30 secs, muscle up (wich im maybe already able to do but cannot test because lack of proper bar)

my strenght is the same for the last 2-3 years.

Hello itisme,

If it's alright, I would like to make some suggestions.

1. If your goal is to do a full pl, fl and bl, are you doing the tuck versions of these? If so, what were your stats before you started training and what are they now.( I'm asking this because I didn't see it in your schedule...hmmm)

2. Please do not mind, but imho, you are extremely underweight for your height. You should weigh at least 80-85kg. I would suggest you gradually start increasing your food intake, you should have at least 2500 kcal going in everyday.

3. I understand your concerns about not wanting to gain too much size, but you need to eat more if you want your muscles to grow. If your training is correct, you should see an increase in muscles. Keep in mind though that there might be some fat deposition also, but it should be insignificant compared to your strength and muscle gains.

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers. 8)

[Aaron Griffin]

Please do not mind, but imho, you are extremely underweight for your height. You should weigh at least 80-85kg. I would suggest you gradually start increasing your food intake, you should have at least 2500 kcal going in everyday.

Agreed 100%. For us imperials, he's about 6'2" and weighs 150lbs.

Instead of eating 1500-2000 calories per day, you should be eating 2000-3000 or maybe even more. If you're absolutely serious about gaining strength, then eat as much as possible - you will gain some fat, but at least you will have a surplus of fuel to rebuild muscles. Fat is easier to lose than muscle is to gain

[itisme]

do i really have to eat that much?

i know for size you have to eat like bad, but only for strenght also?

[itisme]

ok i read a few nutrition stickys and think i start a new ssc on monday with the wod and 3000kcal...if all that is possible.

hope im not gettin too fat, because im already. =)

[Alvaro Antolinez]

I can't think how are you fat when you weight 67 kgs at 1,87... :shock: , maybe what you say is that there is some fat at abs. Once you start gaining muscle, it will melt if you eat properly (and train properly of course),

[itisme]

well i got some fat on my belly and thighs.

and i have 2 more question...

i read slizzardmans Perfect Pre, Mid, and Post Workout Nutrition thread and he talks much about BCAA and whey protein supplements, maybe the question is already answered in the article but im not a native speaker so i dont understand everything exactly...now my questions are:

do i have to take BCAA/whey supplement as pre/post workout nutrition or is it possible to "supplement" with natural foods instead?

and did i get it right to eat after the workout every 30min, 60g of carbs and 30g of protein to get optimal results?

thank you

[Blairbob]

You don't HAVE to take BCAA/whey every day, nearly every hour. It may be optimal too, but it's not super necessary.

is it possible to "supplement" with natural foods instead?

Well, that's apparently what some Chinese and American Weightlifters do. Not amateur fitness wannabees but lifters training for nationals and the olympics.

i did 3x5 dips and have to work hard on every set to kick out 5 reps...and thats for the last 8 weeks => no progress in my opinion.

Here's the thing. You work each exercise/progression 1x/week on your program. This is going to have slower progress than working something 2-5x/week. Just think about it. Working something 5x/week may be a bit much but it very much depends per individual.

[Larry Roseman]

Your training routine seems a bit light to me to. It's good to start slow, and see what your body is capable of without

injury. Assuming it's been fine thus far you could and perhaps should consider a more strenueous routine.

It's true that you can make gains initially and for a while without specific nutritional support. Most of these

are neurological gains, improvements in your ability to recruit muscle fiber, and improve nerve

impulse firing rates. Your coordination, balance and timing also improve so the exercise becomes easier.

If you haven't seen these, then you aren't practicing enough - in other words giving yourself enough volume.

If you think you'll fail at 8, go until 7 instead of 5. Or perform additional sets until you feel you

feel you could fail at 6, rather than 8. Either way you are adding volume. It's a good way to start.

Personally I perform enough work to get in at least 20 sets over 5-7 exercises such as pull ups, dips,

xr pushups, rows and yewkis and tick-tocks. It takes around an hour, hour 15. I've seen a big improvement doing this over

6 months 1-2x week with a few breaks. I would do more but also am endurance training 2x week, playing

tennis and peforming some GPP. Lately I've been adding more complex elements as well like FL and BL

progressions though.

If you never feel sore the next day, it may not be a hard enough workout. If you are sore for longer than 3 days

it's probably too hard.

After your neurological gains are maxed out, your body will need to add muscle to progress further. Perhaps

not all that much, but enough. You can gradually incorporate improvements to your nutrition as you progress though.

Still, workout nutrition will largely miss the mark without sufficent volume and difficulty.