Beginner routine questions

[Geico]

Hello,

I've almost finished reading BtGB and it's been an amazing read. I love working out using calisthenics and would like to further do so, but implement some gymnastic type movements. I would love to be able to teach myself gymnastics. I'm 13 years old and have been working out on and off for 2 years, and have been seriously into it for the past 4-6 months. I have been basing most of my routines off of Ross Enamait's Never Gymless. It's an amazing book that stresses conditioning. Some of my stats are: Earlier today I did the plank, reverse plank, arch hold, hollow hold, PB support position, and chin up hang all for 60 seconds. I also timed my floor L-sit about 10 minutes ago, I got 30 seconds. Non-gymnastic wise, I can perform a max of 14 pull ups, probably around 15 ring dips, and I recently completed 125 pull ups, 125 hindu pushups, 125 chinnies each side, and 250 hindu squats in 36 minutes using the deck of cards method.

I have been doing Taekwondo since was 4, and train on Tuesdays and Thursdays for 90 minutes each. I would like to be able to continue doing seperate conditioning workouts along with max strength/gymnastic workouts. On the strength days, I would implement 3-5 sets and 3-5 reps. Here is an idea I had:

Monday: Pull up variation, push up variation, curl variation, pistol variation

Tuesday: HSPU variation, row variation, dip variation, GHR variation

Wednesday: Conditioning

Thursday: Repeat Monday

Friday: Repeat Tuesday

Saturday: Conditioning

Sunday: Rest

I would most likely work static stuff 4-6 days a week, working all the ones I am working towards at once. (Right now, I'd probably only work on L-sits, Straddles, and the german hangs to work up to back levers)

How does this routine sounds, and how would you recommend I go about stretching (how many days, for how long, what exercises)?

Thanks,

Sam

[Blairbob]

Look at the Killroy70 template.

Basically 1 press, 1 pull, 1 core, 1 leg progression every day besides the statics like Lsit, HS, levers and planche work. 4 days a week. While press and pull only work 3 planes, 1 of those days is a combined press/pull progression like muscle-ups.

2 progressions every day is possible, 3 is rough and hard to do from experience even with SSC which is only working at 50% intensity. And it takes quite a bit of time. Fortunately, you are 13 not 33.

Stretching. Start off with 1 thorough stretching session a week. I'd do it on saturdays with that programming then possibly Wednesday as well.

For a super basic stretching program, look up Brandon Oto's ATG program. I designed the basic stretching for new gymnasts. It's not that great or spectacular and could be a lot better but it was designed for beginner gymnasts and only taken 10-15 minutes as that is how much time I had to dedicate towards it for them. It's super basic so it lacks a lot of specific mobility stretches. 60 seconds may be a bit long for beginners, but in adults the stretch reflex is around 40 seconds. It can be as low as 20 seconds in 5 year olds. It probably varies depending on experience and body actually. Who knows. I don't for the most part on that particular note.

http://agt.degreesofclarity.com/stretching/ It also has some very useful links to other stretching resources with pictures.

[Geico]

Look at the Killroy70 template.

Basically 1 press, 1 pull, 1 core, 1 leg progression every day besides the statics like Lsit, HS, levers and planche work. 4 days a week. While press and pull only work 3 planes, 1 of those days is a combined press/pull progression like muscle-ups.

2 progressions every day is possible, 3 is rough and hard to do from experience even with SSC which is only working at 50% intensity. And it takes quite a bit of time. Fortunately, you are 13 not 33.

Stretching. Start off with 1 thorough stretching session a week. I'd do it on saturdays with that programming then possibly Wednesday as well.

For a super basic stretching program, look up Brandon Oto's ATG program. I designed the basic stretching for new gymnasts. It's not that great or spectacular and could be a lot better but it was designed for beginner gymnasts and only taken 10-15 minutes as that is how much time I had to dedicate towards it for them. It's super basic so it lacks a lot of specific mobility stretches. 60 seconds may be a bit long for beginners, but in adults the stretch reflex is around 40 seconds. It can be as low as 20 seconds in 5 year olds. It probably varies depending on experience and body actually. Who knows. I don't for the most part on that particular note.

http://agt.degreesofclarity.com/stretching/ It also has some very useful links to other stretching resources with pictures.

Thanks for the response, I appreciate it! So for example: Mon: Pull up, dip, leg raise, pistol Tue: Row, handstand, different core movement, GHR? And if I wanted to, I could repeat on Thursday and Friday? The reason why I came up with the routine I did, is because of frequency. I love to workout, and the more often I'm able to train a movement the better. Thanks for the stretching link too! I will definitely make sure to implement that!

[Blairbob]

Well rounded for upper body would be at least 1d/week of horizontal, vertical, and inverted pushing and/or pulling.

I am of the opinion though that sometimes to get better at one movement might mean focusing on it during a cycle. Meaning at least 2d/week.

For instance, say I would like to work on increasing my HSPU ability. I might work them 2-4 days a week but still keep dips and pushup variants in there somewhere as an additional exercise at a lighter volume/intensity.

If you work some variants in their beginner versions, say box HeSPU > floor HeSPU/Graduated HesPU/HSPU, I might argue that working an overhead press complements it well. Possibly the same with horizontal pushing and bench press. (can't really do this with dips unless you pair it weighted dipping). After starting on graduated HeSPU/HSPU, working the OHP may just be too much to double up. Same with tuck PL pushups.

For instance, an inverted pullup/body curl in it's infancy isn't terribly that intense. Perhaps it might be a good idea to add in a DB row (not an invert barbell row) to complement it. If you're merely working on partial ROM pullups or negatives, perhaps complementing it with a pulldown may help. T-bar row to complement horizontal/body pullups/rows.

That's just an idea of mind that I've played around with. If you don't have access to complementing it with those movements, it's sort of a moot question.

I have tried to focus on one movement, say Graduated HSPU on parallettes to my ears instead of full ROM. At the time, most dip variants were not that challenging and only tuck PL pushups were. So russian or ring dips were done once a week as was Pseudo Planche pushups on rings besides the 2 days/week of Graduated HSPU.

Again, it was just an experiment. So for instance M/Th I would work on graduated HSPU and Tu/F I would work on horizontal pushing (pushup variant) and dip variant. So 2d/week there was an intense pushing movement with 2d/week of lighter pushing. Same with pulling was also done.

Similar stuff was done with core strength but I didn't bother to do it with leg strength. Why? Because I was focusing most of my leg training with tumbling and vaulting and sprinting paired up with squats and deadlifts and glute ham work. Jumping pistols for height and distance were in there somewhere though (doing weighted SLS but not weighted jumping SLS).

[Geico]

Thanks for the info! I definitely like the idea of working the movement more than one time a week like you said. My plan is to do an A/B routine. Rotating Tue, Thur, Sat. I would start out with 3x3 with 1-2 minute rest in between each set, and work up to 5x5. This is just the FBE movements, I will definitely include FSPs or PreReqs multiple times throughout the week. I also plan on doing conditioning Mon, Wed, Fri.

A:

A1 Pull up Variation

A2 Pistol Variation

B1 Handstand Variation

B2 GHR Variation

C1 Pushup variation

B:

A1: Curl Variation

A2: Pistol variation

B1: Dip variation

B2: GHR variation

C1: Row variation

With this routine I would do every upper body movement 3 times every two weeks. How does it look?

Thanks for the help, I greatly appreciate it!

[Blairbob]

Looks alright on paper.

Thing is, without knowing where an individual stands, their training history, and current training regimen; it really is a shot in the dark to guess how a program will work for them sometimes.

[Geico]

Thanks, I appreciate you helping me out. For sure, I'll just have to give it time. Get to try it out tomorrow!

[Blairbob]

Sometimes, it's worth the effort to try something out for a few workouts up to 3 weeks.

Things on paper sound great sometimes but put it into one training session, 2 days in a row or after a week or two, things start cropping up. It's just a gamble sometimes to not crush yourself in the process.

[Geico]

I just got done trying the routine! I was really happy that I was able to hold all 6 statics for 60s with ten seconds in between for 3 sets. I did them in circuit fashion, then rested a minute. After waiting ten minutes, I did the FBEs, but felt as if I could of done better. I think I was drained from the FSPs. Is this normal? For the FBEs, I'll make sure to focus on form first, by taking a progression back, rather than rolling the dice and doing something that my form my not be 100% on. Should I do the FSPs on different days than the FBEs? Or should I keep on doing them on my FBE days and work on increasing my strength capacity? If so, how long should I wait in between the FSPs and FBEs?

[Blairbob]

It's possible to work FSPs and FBEs 4-5 days a week but I've also done M FSP and Tu FBE repeating on ThF.

Doing the FSPs in a circuit saves a bit on time but isn't pure strength optimal. If you have the time and want to, finishing one FSP at a time can be done. Just takes way more time. Same for the FBE's.

If you are working on SSC using 50% max intensity/duration hold, 45-90s for FSPs. For FBEs 60-120s.

[Geico]

Okay, thanks! Maybe that's why they drained me. I'll start doing them as sets then. Would you recommend doing them before or after the FBEs, and how long should I rest in between the FSPs?

[Joshua Naterman]

You may want to consider doing your FSP sets separately from your workout, but right now you will be best served by performing them and making the FBE easy enough to do correctly after a 5-10 minute active rest from the FSP. You might want to use that rest period for mobility work, foam rolling, etc.

You may also want to have a glucose/protein drink in a 1:1 ration with 20g of each mixed into a quart or so of water. You will notice a big difference with that, especially when you sip it before and during the FSP work.

Do not try to progress at all right now, your body needs to adapt to what you are doing. Give the routine 4-6 weeks exactly as it is, because this will let you know if you are doing too much or not. There is no such thing as too little right now. Don't add reps or weight or sets. After week 6 you should feel much, much better. If you feel weak or tired one day, only do 1 or 2 rounds of the FSP instead of 3. Be smart, listen to your body. Don't change the difficulty much, focus on just doing less volume on the days you don't feel 100%. That may mean one 45s hold instead of two 60s holds, who knows. Working the same position for less time will be better than changing the position when you are tired, and taking an unscheduled day off while focusing on refueling with carbs and protein spread evenly across the day is also smart in this situation (that dietary stuff should be happening every day)

[Blairbob]

I prefer FSPs before FBEs.

Rest for FSP can be 45-90s between sets when done at 50% of max hold/intensity/duration. I like 60-75s but 45 is bare minimum and 90 if I can feel that each set is taxing me and I'm a bit tired that day.

When I have been short on time, I just did them as a circuit, but took 60-120s of time as rest.

There is definitely something to an intra workout drink. I've gotten out of habit though. I've been making do with just whey preworkout but I'll go back and try to bring some fruit jerky to nibble on during the workout. Nothing like getting tired from a lack of fuel mid workout.

[Geico]

Thanks guys! Definitely won't want to progress too fast. Even though I'm now used to working out, I can tell gymnastics are in a world of their own, especially the static positions. How long should I stay with the preFSPs before moving onto the straddle, German hang, and levers? Diet wise, I think all it might of been was lack of fats. I normally eat more fats/less carbs, and barely ate any fats today. My body normally runs off of fats better than carbs. I really appreciate the tips!

On a side note, I've always had trouble with pistols, but not because of strength. I can do them if I go up on the balls of my feet. The soure of my problems are that I have flat fleet, lack of ankle mobility (caused by flat feet), and Osgood Schlatters Disease (caused by growing. My knee bones rub on each other and it can be painful). My main problem is when I reach the hole, I can't hold it and fall on my butt. I can't hold the position even if I start out in it. I've been doing some ankle mobility drills along with stretching. Any tips?

[Joshua Naterman]

Hold 10-20 lbs in your hands. Use as a counterweight.

[Geico]

Thank you, but is there a stretch/mobility drill or something of that nature that will enable me to do it barefoot? I would rather do pure bodyweight, and would love to be able to cure my lower body difficulties! I really appreciate the advice though!

[Blairbob]

Try raising your heel.

One of the first drills I use for SLS is simply holding the bottom. If a gymnast cannot hold that bottom position, they might hold on to a support beam so it's self assisted. On occasion, I might hold their hands reaching forward but that doesn't really do you any good.

[Joshua Naterman]

I hope I don't come across as rude, but you are being stubborn. Over time you may be able to stretch your ankle enough to do just bodyweight without a counterweight but some people simply can't do this. I am one of them. My femur is long, and it puts my center of gravity behind my heel. You can't fight physics. When COG is outside your base, you fall.

In my opinion it is silly to not hold a gallon of milk or a 10 lb plate or a 3 month old goat or SOMETHING to adjust your balance so that you can do the SLS. Work on the stretching, see if you can eventually do them without a counterweight, but in the meantime be intelligent and use a small weight of some sort so that you can do SLS.

If you don't want to do this then don't, but understand that you will be holding yourself back for absolutely no sensible reason at all.

[Geico]

You're not being rude, but I was for sure being stubborn and have been asking way too many questions. :oops: I am extremely sorry and extremely thankful for the help you and everyone else has given me. Thank you. Luckily today, I did negatives, and was able to go down like a normal human being. ( still lost my balance though ) What helped me the most was mentally trying to push my knee as far forward as I can. Once again, I'm very sorry and thank you very much. I'm happy with the way my routine is going now thanks to you and the GB community, and maybe in a couple of months I'll post my progress.