Biceps use in straight arm work

[flenser]

Hi all,

I've read often while browsing the forums that straight arm work places tremendous strain on the biceps, and that biceps strength is crucial to most straight-arm static positions, including cross, planche and back lever. Coach himself has said this repeatedly throughout the forum, and i must say it interests me to no small amount, as my BL lags totally behind my FL (5s adv.tuck vs. 3s straight FL... i mean, what the heck.) From a practical viewpoint, I completely agree, as i have often had extremely sore biceps after an evening of more intense BL practice.

From a theoretical standpoint however, or shall we say physiological standpoint, I do not quite understand if, or why, straight arm work is particularly beneficial to biceps strength or the other way around.

My question I guess is divided into two parts:

1. would a person with extremely strong biceps have an easier time about learning, say, a cross, than a comparatively weaker person, all other muscles etc. being equal? and if so, why exactly? my problem with understanding this is that the force for maintining this position in particular is supplied primarily by the latissimus dorsii, or am i completely mistaken?

2. can one train arm strength, and i guess for the sake of this post biceps strength in particular, soley via straight arm work? If so, is this recommendable? It just goes completely against most "normal, intuitive" concepts for training arm strength.

Sorry for the wall of text, and also that my two questions turned into about 200 (hyperbole!) somewhere along the way.

I guess my last question would be whether bent-arm work has any transfer to straight-arm or vice-verca, but I won't get greedy here

Thanks in advance,

flenser

[Joshua Naterman]

Your questions should be answered by a fairly basic study of human anatomy and a fairly basic knowledge of physics, particularly force transfer in a rope (or any other object, but ropes make it easy).

If I hang 200 lbs off a rope, it doesn't matter where the weight is on the rope, everything between the anchor point and the weight has the exact same amount of tension. Doesn't matter if lats are a prime mover, the hand is the anchor point and the elbow is in between the two. Therefore the elbow has to sustain all that tension. The bicep is one of the strongest muscles crossing that joint, but all the muscles that cross the elbow, particularly the wrist flexors and elbow flexors (biceps brachii, brachialis, brachioradialis) have to withstand the force. The biceps has the absolute worst mechanical advantage of the three elbow flexors and thus will be the weakest link in most cases. The main issue is that forces are ultra high in a cross or maltese or planche and the connective tissues (elbow ligaments and tendons) will strengthen much more slowly than the muscle will.

In theory you could strengthen the wrist flexors and elbow flexors to the point where they could handle Iron Cross level forces without dealing with the straight arm work, but you cannot train the ligaments (particularly the capsular and ulnar collateral) without being in a straight arm position. No one here, myself included, is going to go further into theorizing as to how this could be done because it only encourages improper training. I will not let that stay here unless Coach decides to say otherwise, and I don't expect that to happen. I am trying to keep you safe. Please do not PM me about this either.

Straight arm work alone will not strengthen everything properly, you have to do bent arm work as well if you want your muscles to be as strong as they possibly can be. You only gain strength in a 15 degree arc surrounding the range of motion you are currently using, so if you're doing an isometric contraction at the elbow (straight arm work) you are going to lack strength further into elbow flexion. That can set you up for injury in other parts of your training.

There is an entire thread devoted to how straight arm strength and bent arm strength have very limited transfer between each other that you can find if you use the search function. Well, in theory. Maybe someone remembers where that is and will link it in, but I'm quite sure it is one of the stickies in one of the subforums.

I will tell you this, you do not need a knowledge of anatomy to be successful here, you simply need to trust those who have come before you and follow the program. Trying to figure out individual muscle contributions is largely irrelevant because it shows an improper mindset: The body has to function as a unit. If something is weak compared to the other muscles involved in a given movement you certainly have to perform focused work to bring it into balance, but balance is the key... not dominance.

By simply mastering one step with perfect form before moving forward to the next you will pretty much completely avoid that issue altogether.

[flenser]

Hi,

thank you for your quick and detailed answer, I truly love this forum for the knowledge it offers.

Just to ease any worry my questions might have given you, I train in a gym with very proficient coaches, and most certainly am not going to go do anything stupid like train cross before sufficient prep (have read coaches prereqs on the forum, trying to stay consistent in my prep). I fear you might have mistakenly thought i was attempting to work on cross, in fact I only brought up that particular hold simply because it is one of the most difficult and iconic; for the sake of my argument i could just as well have used the back lever.

I just have a very inquisitive mind, and really enjoy understanding the concepts behind a certain method or process. That is also why felge (or peach) is my favourite movement in gymnastics - once I understood the interplay of the forces involved, the element simply became more incredible and enjoyable, and the same is true for any and all strength holds on rings.

Sorry if these questions seemed unadvisable in any way, but I never really like doing things "because he said so". Thanks to your reply, it makes more sense.

Trying to figure out individual muscle contributions is largely irrelevant because it shows an improper mindset: The body has to function as a unit.

This is the only part of your explanation that I would take issue with. I think you might have missed my point here. As i stressed at the beginning of the thread, my question wasn't for practical application, but for theoretical discussion. I believe you might have misunderstood me on this. And in this respect, it is of supreme importance to understand what forces act where, and where a certain weakness might show or need to be corrected. In that aspect, simply viewing the body as a unit is the more unadvisable idea, as the precise nature of a movement or strength hold cannot rigourously be described with that approach.

As far as the applied methodology is concerned, you quite visibly have a lot more knowledge in that area than myself, and thanks again for your clear and precise reply.

[Joshua Naterman]

Well, if you don't understand why biceps strength is built through straight arm strength I don't know how to help you, because a picture of the arm in an iron cross position is all you need to see it. There is tension on the biceps, and it is the single greatest point of mechanical disadvantage in the entire movement or position. That much should become very clear as soon as you take a picture of the iron cross with the arm exposed, draw the attachment points of the biceps heads and the other muscles, and think about the angle they make relative to the direct force they experience, as well as how far away from the center of mass the muscle attachments are.

The forearm muscles are also at an extreme disadvantage but they are not directly crossing the center of the elbow joint and their angle of action is slightly less disadvantaged. Still, this is why many people experiencing elbow pain from straight arm work find that they have epicondylitis on either or both of the humeral epicondyles.

As for whether strong biceps would make it easier to learn a cross... Not by itself. You would have to have strong EVERYTHING. Strong biceps with weak forearm muscles = injury. Strong biceps with weak traps = injury. Strong biceps with weak infraspinatus = injury. The list goes on. The entire shoulder and arm musculature is working, and without sufficient strength at all points whatever is weakest will get injured.

I am not going to go through each muscle with you, and I honestly don't think you need anything but a biomechanics course (which you can find for cheap or free, just buy a used textbook for 30 bucks) or physics course (same idea), muscle charts, and pictures of the movements.

That takes some work, but if you ask me because you can't do it then I have to do the exact same thing, and that is a consulting service I would be happy to provide for, say $40 per hour. That's pretty cheap when talking about what consultants typically charge, but I feel that is well within anyone's budget who actually wants to get everything together. I should probably charge $120 per hour. You are talking about highly specialized information that will also be accompanied by practical application and limitations on training if you so choose.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

That takes some work, but if you ask me because you can't do it then I have to do the exact same thing, and that is a consulting service I would be happy to provide for, say $40 per hour. That's pretty cheap when talking about what consultants typically charge, but I feel that is well within anyone's budget who actually wants to get everything together. I should probably charge $120 per hour. You are talking about highly specialized information that will also be accompanied by practical application and limitations on training if you so choose.

Hear! Hear! I agree, and am very glad that you are finally approaching this.

[Joshua Naterman]

That takes some work, but if you ask me because you can't do it then I have to do the exact same thing, and that is a consulting service I would be happy to provide for, say $40 per hour. That's pretty cheap when talking about what consultants typically charge, but I feel that is well within anyone's budget who actually wants to get everything together. I should probably charge $120 per hour. You are talking about highly specialized information that will also be accompanied by practical application and limitations on training if you so choose.

Hear! Hear! I agree, and am very glad that you are finally approaching this.

I guess I have reached the point where I realize that I understand more about this stuff than the vast majority of professionals in the field of applied sports science, and that realization requires me to place the appropriate value on my time, you know? I am not trying to be rude, but I also can't keep myself from "telling it like it is" from my point of view. My apologies if I come across as rude or some sort of "I'm better than you" attitude, because I aim for neither. It is, however, a delicate balance to both respond with constructive comments without devaluing myself. I have little free time, even now, especially since I have started MCAT studying for the August exam. I want to hit a 36-38 with a "superior" written responses. I forget which letter designation that is.

[Quick Start Test Smith]

I think that anyone worth talking to will always want you to tell them how it is. You can't really be honest with or about other people if you can't be honest about yourself. If you have a ton of knowledge and expertise in this field, your professional time becomes very valuable. Under-pricing yourself is just as bad as over-pricing IMO. "Very few people in the world can offer the services I can, and that makes me very valuable. I will charge a fair price for my valuable time." is the attitude you should (and seem to) have in my opinion. That's good.

Good luck with your medical school test... that's tough stuff, but I'm sure you'll do extremely well on it as long as you put the work in.

I know for a fact that I would not hesitate for a second to spend $120+ on an hour of your time dedicated to writing me a personalized training program for my very specific goals. A lot of people say, "I can't afford this, I can't afford that." but really they mean that they aren't willing to prioritize it over other things. That's not a bad thing, but any fool can see the unimaginable lead they would gain on their competitors by investing in such a training program. I will definitely approach you about this one day.

Merry Christmas 8)

[Joshua Naterman]

Thanks Pat! Merry Christmas to you too