Going from bodybuilding to gymnastic workouts

[j0407aar]

hello all I was just wanting some feedback on this. So I wrestled all my life lifted like a bodybuilder for about 6 years or so stop lifting doing any exercise for about two years. I recently got into bodyweight conditioning and have been just doing random pull ups push ups every other day. I'm not that flexible I'm on the brawny side about 5'8 195 in your experience is it a lonnggg transition for guys like my build to have more of a gymnastic body

[Nic Branson]

Be patient, the transition is really only as bad as you make it on yourself. Typically when I see bodybuilders transition to higher tension / strength based training they usually try and progress to fast. The 2 year break may be to your benefit in this. Your muscles are well conditioned and will handle much more then your joints early on.

Work on the basics and your flexibility, get comfortable with the static position so your joins and tendons get used to the load. I started at 5'6" 205 as a former competitive LW strongman. The more patient you are at getting the basic positions down with no joint discomfort the faster you'll start to go.

Bodyweight work like this can be deceiving the volume sneaks up on you. Start conservative ask any and all questions. If you don't have it get the book.

[Joshua Naterman]

Agreed. The biggest mistake you can make, which is the big mistake I made, is to not understand and respect the fact that just because we start off strong doesn't mean we don't need to start at the beginning.

In my opinion you should use weighted dips, weighted push ups and weighted pull ups (and chins) to keep the strength you gained so far in your upper body (and biceps curls too, if you have particularly strong biceps) and use those to satisfy your pride and need for working "heavy." I think we all have that desire. These movements won't hurt you and will build and maintain your muscular strength.

For your actual transition into gymnastics strength, I highly recommend you start off at the very, very beginning and go in order with the book. Stick with each exercise for at LEAST 1 month before you try the next one, even the really easy stuff like a push up on rings. Focus on PERFECT form, which in some cases is not super detailed in the book. If there are questions I will put up pictures or video for you if no one beats me to it. Believe it or not, it can take quite a while just to do really perfect push ups. Use the same form on rings as you do on the floor (stay retracted all the way to the top, then protract at the top, then retract, and THEN start going down for the next rep). It is not easy.

The reason for this is that it is the smaller stabilizing muscles that will be the key to your progress in gymnastic strength. They will take time to build up to the point where they can manage the true forces that your larger muscles can generate. Move forward too quickly and you will learn bad movements that have to be unlearned, which will result in tons of wasted time and slow down your overall progress. With lots of luck that process won't involve any injuries, but I wouldn't bet on that.

Finally, with straight arm strength run SSC and focus pretty well on the planche lean. Move forward (or move your hands back) an inch every month or so and just keep the volume nice and steady. DO NOT let yourself feel fatigued, stop before that sets in. On the rings side, spend a long time perfecting your XR support. It is wise to spend time on parallel bar support first, chances are good that despite excellent strength you will probably need to build up the smaller muscles that allow perfect position to be held.

Edit: I should probably explain why I said that last part. Connective tissue, specifically tendons and ligaments, heals and adapts at a much slower rate (due to lower blood flow and lower temperatures) than muscle does. In straight arm positions your muscles will quickly become stronger than your connective tissues can safely handle (which they may already be) and so it is very important to limit your progress from one SSC to the next to what the connective tissues can handle. This requires a conservative approach. That is why the prerequisites exist, and that is why it is suggested to build up to a single 45-60s hold all the way through advanced tuck planche before advancing to the next position (which would be starting to extend into a straddle). If you try to skip ahead you will get hurt, guaranteed. It won't happen at first, which will make you feel safe. Then when it hits you will have a long, boring and de-motivating recovery period. It won't be a short 8 weeks, it will be more like 6-8 months before you are able to properly train planche again. I am focusing on planche because it looks cool and so we all want to be able to hold one, but the same goes for all FSP and all lower leverage FBE as well.

Owning the book is not an option, it is a requirement if you really want to be able to set proper goals.

[Samuel Carr]

So for perfect pushup form the shoulder blades should not be protracted throughout the whole movement? Is protraction throughout just for pseudo planche push ups?

[Joshua Naterman]

So for perfect pushup form the shoulder blades should not be protracted throughout the whole movement? Is protraction throughout just for pseudo planche push ups?

This is a question that I would prefer answered by Coach, he has a much more informed opinion about where full protraction is necessary in terms of planche work. In a static hold, yes it should be as protracted as you can get it. I have experimented with PPP moving from very partial protraction to full protraction and they feel better to me but are also a bit harder. It would take an immense amount of strength to be able to do a planche push up the way I am suggesting you do regular push ups.

This is another case, in my opinion, where the value of consistently working a "beginner" movement like a perfect regular push up is completely lost on most people. The primary value is to maintain shoulder health after a certain point. As my shoulders continue to improve I will be experimenting with slowly building up added weight on my perfect form push ups, but I have no idea whether a planche push up could be performed this way.

For PPP I suppose it's all about where your hands are, I've done them this way but I have to keep my hands much closer to my shoulders than where I can do a fully protracted PPP. Right now I don't do them at all as I am rehabbing intensively, but when I get back to them I will personally be working them with similar retraction to protraction form for around 50% of total training volume (and an easier position) along with a more challenging hand position with full protraction throughout.

I have no idea what Coach will think of this idea, I'm interested to hear his input.

[Coach Sommer]

While artificially manipulating the degree of retraction and protraction of the scapula is relevant for mobility work and joint prehab, it is should not be emphasized to the same degree during FBE strength work.

During the PPP, allow the scapula to comfortably retract during the descent and then begin the process of protracting during the ascent until (hopefully!) full protraction is reached at the top of the rep. If you are not able to fully protract the scapula at the top of the repetition, your hands are too close to your hips for your current strength level.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Joshua Naterman]

Coach, does the same scapular movement apply to planche push ups? For example, when I am ready to start performing tuck planche push ups at some point in the future should I attempt to perform them the same way you describe performing PPP?

[Coach Sommer]

Coach, does the same scapular movement apply to planche push ups? For example, when I am ready to start performing tuck planche push ups at some point in the future should I attempt to perform them the same way you describe performing PPP?

Absolutely. While they may differ in intensity and complexity, at the end of the day they are both still planche pushup variations.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Joshua Naterman]

Coach, does the same scapular movement apply to planche push ups? For example, when I am ready to start performing tuck planche push ups at some point in the future should I attempt to perform them the same way you describe performing PPP?

Absolutely. While they may differ in intensity and complexity, at the end of the day they are both still planche pushup variations.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thanks Coach! That's what I was thinking, but I wanted to see what your experiences have shown you.

[Andreas Magneshaugen Ullerud]

My question might be a bit ignorant, but wouldn't losing the protraction during a non foot supported planche push-up allow the hips to drop?

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Another question :oops: When in a static planche, should you push-up with your hands against the floor, as this allow for greater protraction? I think Gregor wrote this in another thread, but i might be wrong.

Edit: Arent't Jovtchev's shoulders protracted during the planche push-ups in this video?

[Coach Sommer]

No, while there should be a very strong emphasis on protraction at the top of the movement, the shoulder blades should not remain in protraction for the entire planche pushup rep.

Notice that Jotchev (in the video linked above) begins in protraction, but then his scapula retract (pop up) at the bottom bent arm portion of the planche pushups before once again protracting at the top of the movement.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Joshua Naterman]

It is hard to see, but there is scapular movement in the video as Coach says.

As for the hips dropping, that will happen if you are too weak in one or more areas as you retract. Training with a strong, proper hollow during all your planche preparation is critical if you want to avoid this scenario.