Pull-up set size

[Larry Roseman]

Typically I can do 8-10 pullups in a set, and maybe 25 in total before my arms are wasted.

Today I did 10 sets of 5 so hit 50. Took a few minute break between sets as usual,

and did 30 dips (6x5) the same way in between, but mostly just stretched my legs.

That was a revelation. I didn't realise the total numbers would go up so much by using smaller sets.

Is it because of it is mainly using the ATP-PC system as opposed to the Glycolytic? I wouldn't have

thought that 3-5 fewere per set would make that much of a difference. And I felt that I could have gone

for more, but didn't want to risk too much soreness.

Anyone have a similar experience? Ultimately should this lead to being able to do more in larger sets,

or are the two unrelated?

[Larry Roseman]

Found an interesting write-up on Joel Jamieson's site.

http://www.8weeksout.com/2008/10/17/secrets-of-muscular-endurance/

It recommends combining two different approaches for improving local muscle endurance.

1) Tempo workouts : 2 seconds concentric/2 seconds eccentric, sets of 8-12 no pauses (breathe)

work up to 4 sets of 12 (not sure how long to rest between). Perform each set to failure.

2) Explosive repeat: perform for 10-20 seconds as explosively as possible, no pauses (breathe)

rest 20-40 seconds between sets, work up to 3 sets(?)

The theory is discussed in the post.

With pull-ups explosive repeats it may be helpful to use a little toe push I'd imagine.

That is certainly a more challenging workout than 10x5 with a minute or two rest between sets.

I may try 10x5 for a few weeks, which is a should improve strength and work capacity somewhat, some of which should

spillover to local endurance. If it doesn't help enough, then I may try JJ's program.

[Donar]

Anyone have a similar experience?

Yes. It is not uncommon at all. It depends a lot on how long you rest in between sets. When doings sets of 8-10, I bet you could do a lot more than 25 total reps if you chose to use longer rest periods. You should give it a go. For example, if you did the 10x5 with 2.5 mins of rest in between sets, you could try the 6*8 with 5 minutes of rest in between sets. Total rest and total amount of reps will be similar (9*2.5=22.5 vs 5*5=25 and 50 vs 48).

Ultimately should this lead to being able to do more in larger sets,

or are the two unrelated?

If you just keep doing 10x5, you will obviously not improve very much. You could try some escalating density training (EDT) - it is a good method to increase number of reps.

Here's what you do:

Either change the time while keeping the number of repetitions constant, or change the number of repetitions while keeping the time constant.

For example, you could start with 10x5 in 23 minutes. That means 9*120 seconds of rest and 10*30 seconds of work. Now, you can apply the above, which means:

Either 10x5 in 21.5 minutes (9*110 seconds of rest and 10*30 seconds of work)

or 11x5 in 23 minutes (10*105 seconds of rest and 11*30 seconds of work).

I would recommend the former.

This protocol works very well for some people. Obviously you are going to hit a plateau at some point though. You are not going to keep decreasing rest until you can suddenly do 50 reps in a row

Here are some more tips that have worked well for me to increase pull up reps (my max used to be around 30 strict full rom chin ups and about 25 strict full rom pullups):

- gtg (grease the groove) training

- training to failure

- very high frequency training (meaning pull ups/chin ups probably 5-7 days a week)

I'm not sure if this post actually answers your question, but I hope it helps anyway.

[Larry Roseman]

Thanks Donar.

You're probably right about that . I haven't tried larger sets with longer breaks. I may give that a go.

Appreciate your description and will go over it when I'm awake.

Then I'll have to experiment. I'll probably do an approach for a few weeks and then test for a maximum.

Cheers!

[Julekman]

This system with 10 or more sets of 5 to improve endurance, muscle size and release Growth hormone, work best with shorter rest, say 30-60 sec. If you cant keep the pace, drop some reps or start with less sets. Of course, it is ideal to stick with 50 to 60% of your max in this case.You will also need frequency, at least 4-5 times in a week, but you must be fresh, so watch for balance between intensity and frequency

[Larry Roseman]

This system with 10 or more sets of 5 to improve endurance, muscle size and release Growth hormone, work best with shorter rest, say 30-60 sec. If you cant keep the pace, drop some reps or start with less sets. Of course, it is ideal to stick with 50 to 60% of your max in this case.You will also need frequency, at least 4-5 times in a week, but you must be fresh, so watch for balance between intensity and frequency

Cool... i didn't know it was a system _I just stumbled upon it. But it makes sense

that you'd you'd need to produce some fatigue for maximum benefit.

If it's not producting tons of soreness, frequency should not be a problem.

I kind of wanted to stick with my stumbled upon approach first for a while to see how it works

before trying others. Unless mine is terribly ineffective compared to others.

Thanks!

[Larry Roseman]

Starting to do the following:

5 pullups - 1 minute rest - repeat until unable to continue soundly (40 total)

5 dips - 1 minute rest - repeat until unable to continue soundly (35 or 40 total - forget).

7-8 pushups - 1 minute rest - repeat until unable to continue soundly (100 total - larger last set).

Wasn't sore the next day, but the second day after, whoa - quite sore. Mostly around the scalps and back of shoulders.

Will keep the rests the same for a number of times and then reduce the rest period as per density training

and see if that improves my set sizes.

[Joshua Naterman]

Depends on what energy system you are trying to train and what your intended training effect is. Longer rests will help you make your creatine system more efficient because that will be what you are predominantly depending on if the sets are less than 10s long.

As for why you don't poop out as quickly, you aren't hitting acute neural fatigue as quickly. By stopping before momentary fatigue sets in you are not stressing the nervous system as much, so you are not using up your neurotransmitters or enabling inhibitory responses. There is also the probability that you are not doing as much damage to the muscle at any given rep number compared to the larger sets, which sort of ties in to not enabling inhibitory responses.

The 60s or less rest time is definitely mandatory if you are looking for GH increases.

Have fun!

[Larry Roseman]

Well said, thanks!

Increasing CP efficency is a goal, as well as overall strength, and strength endurance as the rest period is reduced. Wasn't thinking about a GH response in particular but I'll take it if it comes!

I'll reduce the rest period further as the volume increases naturally say both 10%, reset and continue until volume

recovers to the starting point if possible. Then reduce again ... so by the time there's no rest periods I'll be doing

sets of 40 pull ups, and 100 pushups. LOL. Right. Maybe?

My set was probably 10-20 seconds - on the longer side in the latter cycles.

Curious what do you think about rotating the exerises like 5 pull ups-rest-7 pushups-5 dips to maintain freshness?

Or alternatively doing max reps for 10 seconds instead? Most studies have shown a strength gain can occur

regardless of soreness, so if that can ba avoided I'm on board!