How many FSP to train?

[CalisthenicGod]

Hello,

I have a dilemma I am facing, and it is caused by various reasons that I have thought over extensively. I am wondering how many FSP's should be trained at one time:

I did a FSP warm-up routine like this a couple of weeks ago:

-Handstand

-Back Lever

-Planche

-Front Lever

-L-Sit

This turned out to be way too much volume, 5 FSP with multiple sets becomes a workout itself and I end up being more tired than I should when starting my FBE's.

I thought about doing something like this, and it's what I'm experimenting now:

-Planche

-Front Lever

-Handstand

It has only 3 FSP, which feels perfect. My personal reasons for omitting the Back Lever and L-Sit are these:

-Killroy70 did fine without L-Sits, and I personally believe Front Lever will have positive carryover to L-Sits.

-Planche has great carryover to the Back Lever, but the same can be said the other way around.

Doesn't mean I'll never do Back Levers or L-Sits though, but it's just that the volume is way too much right now. I'll see how this goes.

Comments?

[Aaron Griffin]

I like to do 2 FSPs before each set of 2 FBEs. So, I'll do planche/front lever before doing push/pull work, and then l-sit/back lever before leg/core work. I am aware that I should probably switch FL/BL there, but the way they currently feel, this works for me

[CalisthenicGod]

I like to do 2 FSPs before each set of 2 FBEs. So, I'll do planche/front lever before doing push/pull work, and then l-sit/back lever before leg/core work. I am aware that I should probably switch FL/BL there, but the way they currently feel, this works for me

Interesting, this seems like a good way to manage volume. How is it working out for you?

[Phil O'malley]

" My personal reasons for omitting the Back Lever and L-Sit are these:

-Killroy70 did fine without L-Sits, and I personally believe Front Lever will have positive carryover to L-Sits."

From my readings of this site & own limited exp i would not recommend ommiting L-Sit work, for one a 60s floor L-Sit is one of coach's pre req's before starting planche work. In terms of Killroy i do remember reading within one of the WOD threads killroy himself commenting on having an issue with planche progression, coach himself commented it was killroys l-sit (which was at 20sec floor) as the reason for his stalled progression and recommended more l-sit work. my two cents, but i would be interested in hearing from more senior members of the community facing similar issues around FSP volume

[Joshua Naterman]

Front lever will have little carryover to L sit, but L sit will carry over to FL much more. The ab work is there in both, but FL does not engage serratus or front delts to any serious degree and these are both very important to L sit. If there is one FSP to focus on L sit is it.

[Felix Schreiter]

I am doing 7 FSP before every workout at the moment and have no problem with the volume. i think i added 1 or two fsp after some SCCs, so think of extending the number of FSPs when you get stronger. i use the following:

planche lean

reverse plank

dead hang

german hang

handstand

XR support

l-sit

personally i did not use prerequisites like plank,reverse plank,arch and hollow hold etc in my first two SSCs, so I added planche leans, dead hangs and reverse planks in my current SSC. they when i worked them up to the 60sec i will subistitute them with arch and hollow holds, while maintaining the other FPS . this is just my way to catch up with the prerequisites, as i forgot to use them in the beginning. I find it useful to just use FSP that i can hold for at least 30sec( so 15sec holds in the warm up)

my advise would be to focus on the prerequisites( arch/hollow hold, plank/reverseplank, handstand/deadhang, and l-sit). if working on all of them is to hard at first, just add 1 or two FSPs every SCC.

[Rafael David]

Training all the FSP of the book, I think is the best...and beyond the FSP, I training: QDR (queda de rin), human flag and one arm elbow lever...

[Blairbob]

German and hangs are not FSP's, nor are the basic planks or planche lean. These are just FSP prerequisities or BASICS.

However, the planche lean and ring support are a lot more like the FSP's. Prone/Plank support on rings would be a basic ring strength as is the hangs on rings in inverted, dead, basket, and german.

[AlexX]

I would replace the planche with the back lever. Back lever (palms back) is a huge necessity for more advanced ring elements and creates a solid base for planche work, not true in reverse.

" My personal reasons for omitting the Back Lever and L-Sit are these:

-Killroy70 did fine without L-Sits, and I personally believe Front Lever will have positive carryover to L-Sits."

From my readings of this site & own limited exp i would not recommend ommiting L-Sit work, for one a 60s floor L-Sit is one of coach's pre req's before starting planche work. In terms of Killroy i do remember reading within one of the WOD threads killroy himself commenting on having an issue with planche progression, coach himself commented it was killroys l-sit (which was at 20sec floor) as the reason for his stalled progression and recommended more l-sit work. my two cents, but i would be interested in hearing from more senior members of the community facing similar issues around FSP volume

I disregarded L-sit work when I first started because I was able to do an L-sit already but no where near the 60 second time. As a result I struggled with the front lever and my planche never progressed past a close tuck. Yes eventually as I got stronger in the front lever and other moves my L-sit improved but I believe that I did things the hard way and would have cut down on my curve significantly had I listened to the recommendations.

[Fryk]

Regarding the FSPs. When one has attained a profiency at the basics, is there any point in keeping doing them? Say for instance the arch, reverse plank and plank holds - once these can be held for 60 seconds would it not be smart simply to drop them to save time?

[Joshua Naterman]

Regarding the FSPs. When one has attained a profiency at the basics, is there any point in keeping doing them? Say for instance the arch, reverse plank and plank holds - once these can be held for 60 seconds would it not be smart simply to drop them to save time?

Nope, but you will have to learn this one through experience. You don't have to do them at the same time as the rest of your warm up, at this point a single set of all that stuff is my morning routine to help wake myself up and if I'm such a punk that I can't devote 5 minutes to a few basic things that STILL contribute to my strength then I deserve to stall out.

[Blairbob]

if I'm such a punk that I can't devote 5 minutes to a few basic things that STILL contribute to my strength then I deserve to stall out.

bingo :wink: exactly

[Fryk]

Nope, but you will have to learn this one through experience. You don't have to do them at the same time as the rest of your warm up, at this point a single set of all that stuff is my morning routine to help wake myself up and if I'm such a punk that I can't devote 5 minutes to a few basic things that STILL contribute to my strength then I deserve to stall out.

A morning routine, great idea. Reason I asked is because the work out session itself can easily become time consuming endeavour. My initial thought was that these basic statics could be sufficiently covered by doing movements with the positions integrated into the warm up: hollow hold covered by hollow body rocks, arch hold covered by arch ups, plank via push ups and so forth. A morning routine seems like a better idea though.

[CalisthenicGod]

Great discussion going on, I guess I'm keeping the 5 FSP for warm-up. After all, I am only working out 3 times a week as opposed to most doing 4 days a week (killroy70 style).

By the way, what are the FSP progressions for handstands? For example Wall HS ---> Freestanding HS ---> Ring HS ?

I ordered Coach's Xtreme Rings. Hopefully they'll arrive soon .

[Joshua Naterman]

You don't really need a freestanding HS to start working on XR HS, you just need to be able to get into a decent position on the rings. Don't worry about RTO XR HS for a while because at first it's going to be hard to straighten your arms period!

It Is a very good idea to have a 60s+ stomach-to wall handstand with wrists less than 6" away from the wall and a slightly hollow body before attempting this.

[CalisthenicGod]

Thanks for the quick reply Sliz,

Going off topic here:

I am going into University this fall (although I am uncomfortable to share which university and what I am studying on the internet :? ). I am thinking about doing a 3-6 month cycle of doing only Dips, Pull-ups and Handstand Push-ups. Nothing Else.

The reasons for this is:

-Time Constraints: I may not have enough time to program my routine as thoroughly and research information and post on forums as much, so a simpler routine may be better to build up some foundational strength. Also doing only 3 exercises maybe 3 times a week shouldn't take too much time.

-Simplicity: Again, it's much simpler to focus on just 3 things than a whole program that needs careful calibration and SSC cycles, etc.

-Muscle Gain: I understand bent-arm work is better for hypertrophy, especially done within 40-60 seconds of TUT (according to one of your massively informative posts). I will most likely do higher rep ranges or something along the lines of "Russian Bear Routine" from Pavel.

Do you think this is a good idea? If so, how many set/reps and rest times would you recommend using only 3 of these exercises for maximal hypertrophy? There's the Pavel Bear method which is 10-20 sets of 5 reps using 30-90 second rest, and there's stuff like modified German Volume Training like 5x10, etc. What would you recommend? I feel gaining 10-20 pounds more muscle mass will help in social situations (I'm currently 6'2 and around 170 pounds).

Thanks in advance

[Joshua Naterman]

Try it out. I think you will make a HUGE mistake if you don't include MPP and CPP. Yewkis, reverse yewkis, fl pulls, front pulls, etc should all fall under the pull up category and you should do your sets with these. I also highly recommend starting to work on OAC if you haven't already, assuming you can do at least 9-10 perfect deadhang pull ups and chins (separate sets, separate days if you need to). Obviously this would mean starting by grabbing your wrist with the off hand.

I will also suggest one arm, one leg push ups. You can spot with your off hand and you can even brush the ground with the off foot if you want to to make things easier. These are awesome.

other than those suggestions I think you should be fine.

HAHAHA social situations. Yes, whoever you want to hit on will almost certainly like bigger muscles!

Here's the deal: Pavel's program is really more of a hypertrophy-oriented version of my 10x3, and is absolutely a good idea. It's fairly similar to the concept behind advanced GVT. You may need to start off with 7x5 or 5x5 or something lower volume, I don't know, but you'll keep adding sets as time goes on. Keep the rests 30-60s, 90s is a bit long unless you're really deep into the sets.

Personally, if I were going for size I'd probably do the bear program. I would set up your sets to where you're doing 3-4 sets of assisted OAC(when you're ready, start with just 1 set), chins, then pull ups, then yewkis, then front pulls, then reverse yewkis if space permits, then FL pulls. Feel free to mess with that order. You'll get MUCH better development as well as strength. Eventually you'll want to drop the two arm pull up and chin work almost completely, I mean by the time you can do 10+ sets of 2+ OAC per arm you're going to be getting buff as hell and two arm pull ups will be a waste of your time outside of warming up.

[CalisthenicGod]

Try it out. I think you will make a HUGE mistake if you don't include MPP and CPP. Yewkis, reverse yewkis, fl pulls, front pulls, etc should all fall under the pull up category and you should do your sets with these. I also highly recommend starting to work on OAC if you haven't already, assuming you can do at least 9-10 perfect deadhang pull ups and chins (separate sets, separate days if you need to). Obviously this would mean starting by grabbing your wrist with the off hand.

I will also suggest one arm, one leg push ups. You can spot with your off hand and you can even brush the ground with the off foot if you want to to make things easier. These are awesome.

other than those suggestions I think you should be fine.

HAHAHA social situations. Yes, whoever you want to hit on will almost certainly like bigger muscles!

Here's the deal: Pavel's program is really more of a hypertrophy-oriented version of my 10x3, and is absolutely a good idea. It's fairly similar to the concept behind advanced GVT. You may need to start off with 7x5 or 5x5 or something lower volume, I don't know, but you'll keep adding sets as time goes on. Keep the rests 30-60s, 90s is a bit long unless you're really deep into the sets.

Personally, if I were going for size I'd probably do the bear program. I would set up your sets to where you're doing 3-4 sets of assisted OAC(when you're ready, start with just 1 set), chins, then pull ups, then yewkis, then front pulls, then reverse yewkis if space permits, then FL pulls. Feel free to mess with that order. You'll get MUCH better development as well as strength. Eventually you'll want to drop the two arm pull up and chin work almost completely, I mean by the time you can do 10+ sets of 2+ OAC per arm you're going to be getting buff as hell and two arm pull ups will be a waste of your time outside of warming up.

Wow thanks Sliz, it's pretty eye opening that you mention the multi-plane stuff, I thought it was only meant to be done when you completely master the basic push/pull movements. I'll try incorporating multi-plane pushing/pulling and combined push/press in my routine asap .

So you believe it'll be wise to add OAC and OAPushup work in my training? Should I go for Paul Wade's One-arm push-up (Which I have yet to see a video of) or something like Jim's one-arm push-up?

This is basically a torso parallel OAP with legs shoulder width apart, so would aiming for this be a good idea? Would it build a good amount of strength? Most people usually favor Planche work over OAPushups.

Your suggestion on the myriad of pulling exercises is interesting. I could see it developing an enormous amount of pulling strength after 6 months. Looks like I'm going to make some drastic changes to my workout. I can do a couple of Uneven Pull-ups each arm, so I'll start working on that (it's pretty hard for me right now).

By the way, my Xtreme Rings arrived! I also ordered Free-Standing Pull-up Bar, Metal Parallettes and a Dip stand . I guess I'm pretty set for working out in my dorm in university. Hopefully my roommate won't mind the extra stuff 8) .

[Joshua Naterman]

You can do that kind of one arm push up, I personally like having left foot and right hand on the ground with left hand spotting lightly and right leg off the ground. This completely eliminates twisting AND adds an anti-rotational component to the exercise which will make it a great stability move as well as making you very slightly "heavier". However you do it, strive for excellent motion.

[CalisthenicGod]

You can do that kind of one arm push up, I personally like having left foot and right hand on the ground with left hand spotting lightly and right leg off the ground. This completely eliminates twisting AND adds an anti-rotational component to the exercise which will make it a great stability move as well as making you very slightly "heavier". However you do it, strive for excellent motion.

Sounds good. Although is there any significant benefits from doing One-Arm Push-ups? Wouldn't working on Planche and it's progressions be a better use of one's time than pursuing OAPushup? I'm having some massive routine programming issues and I'd like to cut back on the amount of exercises as much as possible. I personally believe less is more and focusing on few important basics to build strength/size.

1. I have a question in regards to set/rep ranges. I am going to follow your advice on sticking to the "Bear" routine starting off with something like 5x5 and slowly adding sets until I reach 10-20 sets of 5 reps with 60 second rest between sets. However this means I would only be working in the 20-40 second TUT range, which is not the most "optimal" hypertrophy range. Thus, what do you think of aiming for 5x10 (5 sets of 10 reps) after achieving 10x5 (10 sets of 5 reps)? This would cause me to work in the 40-60 second TUT range which should stimulate more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. One thing I don't understand is how a large number of sets of 5 reps can cause massive growth, is there something I am missing here (does total work volume play a big role as well)?

2. If I'm going to be working on Multi-Plane Pulling movements, should I probably start with Front Lever Pulls only? Seeing as Yewkis are another level above it. Also, important question here: Do I have to follow every single step in each category? Can I skip thing like under-hand grip Dips, Korean Dips, Bulgarian Dips, or whatever. Things like moving from Dips ---> Russian Dips ---> Single Bar Dips ---> Ring Dips. Don't really have to follow every step along the way nor start from the very first, only do the steps that suit my current strength levels, am I right?

3. What are your thoughts on Bridging? I'm working on "Full Bridges" from CC but with my own progression standards. I am going to then work on Wall Walks and then finally Stand-to-Stand Bridges and Front/Back Limbers. Apparently the benefits of bridging go beyond just flexibility and strength. Supposedly it builds up your spinal muscles and could protect you against accidents that would otherwise cause you to be permanently paralyzed, and other myriad of benefits such as increased metabolism (I'm guessing from improved Qi flow in the spine, but this is Chinese Medicine stuff so I don't expect you to know this) and improved digestion (probably from stretching out the abdominal region and relieving tightness), rib cage expansion and it goes on and on. Does this sound too good to be true?

4. Right now my statics only consist of Back Lever, Planche, FL and L-Sit. I got rid of Wall Handstand because I achieved a 60 second hold and plus it was cutting into my energy when warming-up (too much volume if I do this AND the 4 statics I mentioned above). Besides I could work on slowly removing my feet from the wall in my HSPU's so maybe I'll achieve a free-standing HS that way. What are your thoughts on my rambling?

5. This is the routine I generated from a ton of critical thinking on my part and a lot of things are modified based on your advice:

Workout A ~ Horizontal Push/Pull Day:

-Push-up FBE progressions (Right now I'm on Pseudo Planche Push-ups)

-Row FBE progressions (On Tuck FL rows right now)

-Bridging progressions (On Full Bridge currently)

Workout B ~ Bent-Arm Strength Day:

HSPU FBE progressions (On Headstand Push-ups with wall spotting)

Pull-up FBE progressions (On regular Pull-ups)

Dip FBE progressions (On regular Dips)

Workout C ~ Unilateral Training Day:

OAPushup progressions (On assisted OAPushups, getting close to OAPushups feet shoulder width apart with no torso twist)

OAC progresions (On Uneven Chin-ups, can only do like 1-2 per arm right now so I'm going to GTG a bit)

Single Leg Squats (I can do Full SLS, going to build up more reps and perfect my form)

Workout D ~ Multi-Plane/CPP Day:

Combined Push/Pull FBE progressions (Haven't started yet, but probably going to do kipping muscle-ups)

Multi-Plane Pushing FBE progressions (Haven't tried any yet, probably will hold it off until I get a decent Planche and HS)

Multi-Plane Pulling FBE progressions (Going to do Front Lever Pulls and then Yewkis after I master that)

Goal if 5x5 for each FBE, I might do 5x10 for some of them if I want to build up reps and stimulate more hypertrophy. Rest Time is 3 minutes generally, but for Unilateral work I rest 1 minute between each side (When I finish working both sides, I count them as 1 set and rest for 3 minutes before doing another "set" with both sides".

I rest for 1 day between my workout days, and my warm-up consists of the statics I mentioned previous (BL, PL, FL, L-Sit).

Any thoughts on what to fix? Would appreciate it if you can spot inherent flaws in my training routine.

Thanks in advance, if you answer my questions you really deserve a medal of honor.

[Joshua Naterman]

Bridging is good, just take it slow.

In my opinion OApushups are highly complementary to planche work based on my experience thus far, and they impart an ENORMOUS amount of strength to the upper body. You are FORCED and REQUIRED by the nature of the movement to develop a strong serratus anterior, which is 100% vital for extreme upper body strength. It is what holds your shoulder blade onto your body when you are doing horizontal presses. Feel free to not do this, it is not exactly part of GB but I believe it is a vital accessory exercise. It works things that PPP does not, and visa versa. I can honestly say that these two cover all of your horizontal pressing requirements.

The dip variations need to be approached more cautiously than the MPPu, but figure out what you can do with good form and what you can do with the equipment you have. I highly suggest working Bulgarian dips on PB for a good while before trying them on the rings, this is the book's recommendation and if you are doing them correctly by internally rotating the shoulders you will immediately see that they are quite a bit more difficult than they appear. They are not just wide dips. Palms back Koreans shouldn't be too bad, but palms forward are a bit tougher to me. Either way, start with partial ROM and work into it slowly.

MPPu: Do what you have strength for. In my opinion this is a family that needs to be done together, and you will see this reflected in the recent WODs. If you want to keep it simple use a different one each workout, but in my opinion when you can do Yewkis they are the single most productive variation even in tuck. Front pulls are also great but you need to be able to initiate the movement with the lats specifically to get the right training effect.

Your TUT will be entirely dependent on your pace. Just do the reps a little slower if you want more TUT. With that much volume you're going to grow no matter what as long as you're eating, just work out and stop worrying about it! You don't need to understand how a lighter works to make fire with it, just use it! Total volume in a given period of time is what determines hypertrophy response.

There's nothing wrong with what you're doing, it looks fine for an introductory program. Just keep the joints balanced and be consistent!

[CalisthenicGod]

Thanks Sliz, your medal of honor will be sent to you shortly 8)