How to prioritize between mobility and strength work?

[u3er]

Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding how to go about prioritizing strength and mobility goals. A bit of background: I've been strength training for some 10 years, then transitioned to body-weight only GB workouts about 2 years ago, and recently started training gymnastics more seriously by taking adult tumbling/gymnastics classes. Only after having taken these real gymnastics lessons did I realized how poor my mobility actually is (especially through my shoulder girdle/hips).

So I am wondering, how do I go about significantly improving mobility while still also gaining strength? It seems like the more strength work I do, the less mobile (flexible) I become. Is it a matter of just hugely upping my mobility work or is it also important to lay off the strength training while re-conditioning my body to become more flexible?

If it is actually possible to achieve both simultaneously, could you suggest a 2-a-day approach (or anything else that may be appropriate) to becoming more mobile AND strong?

Thanks again!

A.J.

[Joshua Naterman]

You wil have to dedicate more time to your mobility. If you're becoming less flexible with strength work that tells me you don't have a daily mobility circuit that you go through.

You may want to just steady state most of your strength work and work on mobility until you achieve inlocates on rings for shoulders. That will be a while, but I'm not suggesting that you STOP strength training, just stop trying to make additional gains for a while. Once you have mobility it's fairly easy to keep it, and it IS fairly difficult to make excellent strides in mobility when you're pushing hard on strength. It can be done, but you may not have the time or knowledge.

There is no hard and fast routine, but practicing German hangs on a daily basis is an ok start. It's not enough on its own, you need to practice inlocates and exlocates on either cable machines like a freemotion where it can be set to shoulder width (my personal preference) or some other way. It may take you a year or more but you'll get there eventually.

If you stop pushing so hard on strength and just run SSC you will still make strength gains and can still do PLENTY of mobility work. That's pretty much what I'm doing and it works well. Mobility work seriously has to be done every day though, I have found that even taking the weekend off causes some loss of forward momentum. Volume may change dramatically from one day to the next, but you should keep the load more or less the same.

That is just my suggestion. Coach and Dillon have a much more informed perspective on this and can offer much more complete advice. For hips, take a ballet class for a month and practice what they teach you. They probably have the best hip mobility of everyone.

[Cole Dano]

I think Slizz has given a good answer.

I'm coming from the other end of the spectrum, i was very flexible, but not so strong. Mobility from my experience needs to be worked on very consistently, as Slizz is finding, when you are actively working to gain flexibility you will need to work some aspect of it almost every day.

However, as you start to work hard on the flexibility you will find it also makes you sore, in fact i can say honestly, that in my time of working very deeply with flexibility i was sore a lot. Of course, i was in a unique position and able to work four hours a day.

My own recommendation, have a few basic flexibility days, legs, hips, shoulders, and a simpler comprehensive set of stretches that are more mobility oriented. Cycle through the deep work, with at least one day off always starting with the basic mobility.

There are so many ways of setting up the details that i don't want to get into it. Ballet, yoga, etc are things you could try to put into your schedule to help.

[u3er]

Thanks for the tips guys,

It sounds like I'm simply not dedicating enough time to mobility work to see the major gains that I'm after. While I do practice some stretching/mobility exercises every day (check out http://www.mobilitywod.com if you have not yet seen it!), it has always been as part of warm-up and cool down to my GB strength workouts but has never held the status as my 'main' workout. When I go really hard/deep on stretching, I am usually pretty sore the next day and my strength workouts seem to suffer - as result I tended to favour strength progress over mobility progress though have come to the realization that added mobility will be crucial for future skill development. A bit of a catch-22!

I should mention that I have already seen pretty good flexibility improvements over the last 2 years of just 'recreational' stretching (where I went from REALLY inflexible compared to normal people, to just pretty inflexible compared to a typical gymnast). That said, I want to be of normal-flexibility level that is required for gymnastics skills!

So if I lay back on the dynamic strength for a while to focus on mobility/flexibility as my main WOD (while doing FSP as maintenance), how do I go about programming my workouts? I am fairly familiar with various stretching techniques and routines (PNF, dynamic, etc.), but am not very knowledgable with workout-to-workout programming for mobility.

Mr. Brady: if I understand correctly, you suggested dividing mobility workout by body parts. So one day legs, one day shoulders, etc. and each day would also have a 'general' whole-body component. Does this mean I should blast my legs and go light on whole body one day, then blast my shoulders and go light on my whole body the next day, etc.? And how do I go about inserting FSP into this model? Does it happen before or after flexibility work? Do them together or at opposite ends of the day?

Any further clarification/advice that you could give me would be awesome!

Thank again

A.J.

[Joshua Naterman]

I am definitely finding mobility work to be a lot more important than flexibility work. Mobility increases always come with flexibility increases, but flexibility increases don't always come with mobility increases. The shoulders in particular are tough for me, but what's cool is that once I make progress and keep it for a month or two it seems to be sort of "permanent" in the sense that it doesn't take much to maintain what I have gained.

You definitely need to decide which end of the spectrum you are more deficient in and focus more of your work there. I'm not talking about 90% mobility and 10% strength, but 65% mobility would be pretty good. 35% of your time spent on strength is more than enough to maintain what you have gained so far, and shouldn't interfere with your mobility work. You could also just have a second workout that is JUST mobility.

[Cole Dano]

Mr. Brady: if I understand correctly, you suggested dividing mobility workout by body parts. So one day legs, one day shoulders, etc. and each day would also have a 'general' whole-body component. Does this mean I should blast my legs and go light on whole body one day, then blast my shoulders and go light on my whole body the next day, etc.? And how do I go about inserting FSP into this model? Does it happen before or after flexibility work? Do them together or at opposite ends of the day?

Yes that is the general idea.

I'm not sure we all agree on some terms, for me mobility is about taking a joint through it full range of movement. Generally without forcing the range to get bigger, rather letting the repetitions organically grow the range of movement.

They can be done more actively by physically moving the joint through it range, or more passively by using a support or assistance.

For example hip joint, doing legs lifts and circles while standing vs. dong them laying down holding a belt which is around your foot and letting your grip support the weight of the leg.

Flexibility work is taking a joint to its limit in one direction with the goal of increasing the range of motion.

Again it can be done more actively or passively.

In both cases, i find working both ways very beneficial, and i think that doing both is also the quickest way to get gains.

I won't get into specifics as i think that the way you work flexibility needs to work for you. I like yoga, not everyone does, but every good system of physical health will have some sort of mobility/flexibilty method that goes with it. Find one that you like.

However, we do want to be systematic.

Mobility should cover all major joints.

Neck, shoulders, elbows, wrists, fingers. hips, knees, ankles, toes, and of course the spine.

Spinal movements should include, bending forward, backward, sideways and twisting.

Mobility should also help one find the interconnectedness of movement.

Mobility should generally not leave you sore the next day.

Flexibility work is more focused, note that after certain WODs coach also will have some flexibility work.

Its best to separate the spinal movements for there own days.

One day for forward bending - hamstring flexibility

One day for back bending - hip flexor flexibility

On these days if you work heavy its good to end with a light variation of the opposite movement. E.g. if you do a lot of backbends, end with a lighter forward bend.

Shoulders are a huge topic, but work extension (hands over head) flexion hands move from hips backwards,

Arm internal and external rotation

Scapular movements, up, down, side to side, and the rolling movements for example done is dislocates.

Hips follow a similar pattern, legs together forward bends, wide legs, groin stretches, quad stretches ect, this can often be done on the appropriate forward of back bending days. There are so many types of hip stretches its hard to name them all

But key ones are variations on what Coach call leg extensions, butterfly, lunge, splits forward and sideways.

Well that is a rough summary of how to think.

Flexibilty work will make you sore, but its important that the muscles are sore and not the joints. With hip work in particular it can hit the knees and this shouldn't happen. Shoulder work also needs to not go into the shoulder joint itself.

As for when, mobility can be done any time, but it is a very natural prelude to warm up. I do my shoulder mobility with bands right before starting upperbody strength, and sometimes in-between rounds.

Flexibility is usually done separately or last, but active dynamic flexibility can be done as warm up as well.

One thing i do, and noticed that Coach also recently recommended is working flexibility between strength rounds. The key being that its flexibility for an area you aren't working strength wise. E.g. Dynamic upperbody days, do some lower body stretching between rounds. Its very efficient and i find it aids in between round recovery as the mind usually needs to cool down to do any quality flexibility work.

[Joshua Naterman]

That's true. The definitions I like are that flexibility is the range of motion the joint is currently capable of with assistance. Mobility is the range of motion that you can voluntarily move through using muscular contractions, so this is similar to active flexibility. When I use the term mobility here I assume people understand that the joint has to be stable and in correct position for the range of motion to be legitimate. Obviously that's a faulty assumption.

[u3er]

Mr. Brady,

Thanks for the detailed response! I guess I also should have clarified how I define mobility and flexibility. To me, mobility is the range of motion that can be demonstrated in a joint through all planes (and this is preferrably done without assistance). To be mobile, the entire system of muscles/ligaments/etc. assosciated with a joint needs to be functioning well.

I think of flexibility, on the other hand, as more specific and related to the range of motion that is attainable in a particular muscle. So while flexibility alone may not equate to good overall mobility, flexibility (when balanced) is a component that is essential for good mobility. I hope this makes sense?

So given this, I agree that a basic full-body mobility routine would be beneficial to do everyday to just improve and maintain joint health. Where I am a bit confused though (still!), is how/when to incorporate the hard flexibility work that is needed to address the tight muscle areas that are limiting mobility.

For example, would it be best to work flexibility across only 1 plane each day (ie. pike, then straddle, then front split) or is it better to work flexibility across all planes on the same day (ie. full lowerbody day, full upperbody day)? And how frequently should the schedule repeat - or rather, how much recovery time is needed in between sessions? Is FSP done at the same time as mobility/flexibilty work or separately?

Thanks again for your help!

A.J.

[Cole Dano]

So i'd say our idea of mobility is about the same. As an experiment try doing some of the mobility work in a relaxed fashion, it can be surprising how it helps the active work.

I'll preface my answer by saying, like any kind of training there are multiple approaches that can work. However, most of us who have spent a lot of time working and teaching find is the one plane at at time method works best in the beginning.

So one day of various forward bends with the legs in various positions, front splits, side splits can be on the same day as well. etc...

You should always do lighter stretches in the opposite direction to relive any strain. The lower back almost asks for this anyway. So if you do forward bends, and light back bend would be table or shoulder stand bridge.

I'd try to come up with 3 or 4 different days and cycle through them, generally 2-3 days between heavy stretches is a good amount, anyway the mobility work will help keep your gains.

I will add that at least in yoga, for beginners we tend to emphasize forward bends and hip opening over backhanding for beginners. So if you find both movements very challenging you might do two forward bending days to one backbending day.

[Fryk]

Hoping to throw a few questions into the mix, it is a bit elusive to me how to program this.

Sat one were to do the flexibility circuit as suggested by Mr.Brady: 3 part split eg. forward bending, back bending and upper body.

- Would this be PNF or relaxed stretching?

- Wouldn't forward bending and front splits target the hamstrings? Or should one not worry about targeting the same muscle group on consecutive days?

- When 2-3 days has to elapse between heavy stretching sessions, does this mean that every day involves heavy stretching - and that the 2 days of rest between two sessions of forward bending is enough?

- The daily mobility routine, is this to be supplemented a specific body part split a la the flexibility routine?

- Would doing the WODs on top of this be too much?

[Blairbob]

I do a lot of mobility in my WU, however this is because I'm getting old (going on 33) and proven by my increasing amount of white hairs...though I think that's the kids fault actually. I say it is anyways since 2004.

Just reading Poliquin I noticed he recommended only PNF stretching before workouts and static stretching at least 6 hours later. I do find that with a proper WU and hitting mobility I can use all the flexibility I can muster without having to sit in a split for 1m+.

I think I'm past the age I can just do a 3m warmup and hit it hard. Not when it comes to my shoulders and elbow and spine and hips.

My WU pretty much warms me up then hits the spine, hips, shoulders, more shoulders then wrist then more shoulders, then bridging. There is a bit of knee and ankle in there as well.

I think someone can get away with doing as much but like doing that much.

Doing a daily split of some mobility is a good way to get someone to prioritize some mobility into their daily routine whereas they might not if they already don't.

[Joshua Naterman]

You just want to avoid engaging the stretch reflexes. Active isolated stretching is a fantastic way to do that. Coupled with PNF it is a real winner. You should try using AIS to get as far as you can on your own and THEN do PNF. Very fast and effective.

If you combine this with proper use of Gua Sha you will teach the muscles to become longer and more flexible very quickly and fairly permanently.

[Cole Dano]

Hoping to throw a few questions into the mix, it is a bit elusive to me how to program this.

Sat one were to do the flexibility circuit as suggested by Mr.Brady: 3 part split eg. forward bending, back bending and upper body.

- Would this be PNF or relaxed stretching?

- Wouldn't forward bending and front splits target the hamstrings? Or should one not worry about targeting the same muscle group on consecutive days?

- When 2-3 days has to elapse between heavy stretching sessions, does this mean that every day involves heavy stretching - and that the 2 days of rest between two sessions of forward bending is enough?

- The daily mobility routine, is this to be supplemented a specific body part split a la the flexibility routine?

- Would doing the WODs on top of this be too much?

Well PNF is sort of half relaxed and half active. I never heard of it until recently, as we use different terminology in yoga. But you know it amounts to the same thing. As Slizz alluded to above, a great thing is to start with RIS and then as you start to feel you can release and get somewhat comfortable, turn on the PNF contractions. Ulimately PNF is very natural, and sometimes i feel its made to be more than it is, and more importantly it can be artificial. After a while you can kind of hear the bodys rhythm and can tune the rhythm of the PNF work to your body. Its not like you need a stopwatch. I did this for years without realizing someone gave it a fancy name.

Timing wise the main thing is just to feel like your ready to do some more stretching. If your really sore at first wait till its gone. There is no hard and fast rule, and in fact there may come a time you feel you need to work something every day. For me i don't feel a huge need to to much every day because of the four hours a day i did for years.

The other reason for the cycle is there is just so much time in the day, so this makes sure you work on everything.

Mobility is at least part of warm up, the deep work after of even in its own session. WODs can be done the biggest issue for most is going to be time management. If you do the WODs its sequence is Mob FSP WOD Flexibiity

[Quick Start Test Smith]

It would be great if someone could formulate a general mobility and flexibility template. I'm having a bit of trouble visualizing what it would be like.

[Blairbob]

flexibility template.

http://agt.degreesofclarity.com/stretching/

if you dig through mobilitywod.com, K-star goes over the basic lower and upper body/extremity series in different posts

[Fryk]

The Dick Hertzell? and the AIS technique seems to be very time efficient. Which is positive considering some flexibility routines can be very time consuming. The need for mobility work is also time consuming.

However, is this dynamic flexibility routine appropriate / sufficient for gymnastics? Will it actually lead to the splits?

The two templates from Blairbobs post, are these a daily stretching routines?

With all of this there is probably a need for self-experimentation. No magic pill.

[u3er]

Sorry for the late reply guys,

Once again, thanks for the wealth of information! This past week, I did some experimenting: I scaled back my WODS to focus on a SOLID mobility warm-up, then performed FSP German Hangs, Front Lever, and Planche, paired with Ab work as my main workout. I noticed a huge improvement in shoulder mobility (this is the area I focused on), by doing extensive soft-tissue mobility work prior to FSP workout... It actually really made me realize that focused mobility work is a component that was really lacking in my previous training routines.

As for flexibility, I intend to experiment with that more this week (paired with mobility work and FSP). I will test out a front-split, side-split, spine/shoulders 3-day flexibility rotation, where I will really try to push my limits.

I have never tried pairing AIS followed by PNF, so I will give that a go too. But slizzardman, I'm hoping you can elaborate on this:

You just want to avoid engaging the stretch reflexes. Active isolated stretching is a fantastic way to do that. Coupled with PNF it is a real winner. You should try using AIS to get as far as you can on your own and THEN do PNF. Very fast and effective.

If you combine this with proper use of Gua Sha you will teach the muscles to become longer and more flexible very quickly and fairly permanently.

Specifically, what do you mean by "you just want to avoid engaging the stretch reflexes"?

Cheers,

A.J.

[Joshua Naterman]

The stretch reflex is a reflexive contraction of a stretched muscle. The more tension you put on the muscle the faster it happens, and when a muscle is contracted you can not stretch it. AIS allows you to avoid this reaction, which allows you to stretch fairly intensely and rapidly without hurting yourself or unintentionally preventing progress. You can't stretch a contracting muscle, you can only tear one.

As a side note, when you guys try PNF remember this next bit. It is very, very important.

YOU ONLY HAVE ABOUT 1 SECOND TO STRETCH AFTER YOU RELAX FROM THE CONTRACTION. Most sources forget to mention this, but you only have about 1 second before the body recovers from it's proprioceptive "illusion" that the contraction causes. You have to increase the stretch IMMEDIATELY after the contraction, and don't push it too far.

Under no circumstances should anyone ask what I mean by "the contraction." I would appreciate space not being wasted on something that should be googled. If you don't know what the contraction means then you don't know what PNF means. No one here should have the responsibility of explaining things that can be easily found by a google search titled "what is PNF" or "how to do pnf stretching" or a wikipedia "PNF" page.

Asking about details like the one I just explained above is cool, not everyone understands proper application and to me that is different. Anyways, that was slightly off topic but it was burning my mind so I put that out there. That is not aimed at anyone in particular.

[u3er]

Thanks for the reply slizzardman,

I had heard the "stretch reflex" that you described referred to as (perhaps incorrectly) the "flex reflex," hence my confusion! This all makes much more sense now

And yes you are correct about the PNF stretching. Research suggests that you have 1-3 seconds to push further into a stretch after contraction before your body begins to readapt (though the faster you move, obviously the better!). By 10 seconds you have apparently already lost all effects of the contraction.

A good visual that often helps me with PNF stretching is to image a balloon popping: while contracting you are super tight and resisting the stretch, and then in an instance the balloon "pops" and your WHOLE body relaxes further into the stretch. Imagining the tension leaving your entire body (instead of just the specific muscle that you are stretching) makes a big difference.

Anyone else have any other useful tidbits?

Cheers,

Andrew

[Nicholas Sortino]

Sneak mobility into your day. I don't know what kinda job you have or if you are in school, but I am also throwing in bits of mobility and flexibility throughout the day. When we have classes, I will cross one leg and lean forward for a nice hip stretch. When I am tired I stand up in the back and discreetly stretch my ankles in every direction or do shoulder rolls.

When we are not doing classwork my job is fairly active, so I don't have to do much "sneaking" of my stretches, but I still throw some in when I get the chance. Just look for time and opportunities to do things. Wrists and ankles are very easy to do discreetly, as is that hip stretch, since it looks like a normal gentlemans cross-legged position, with a slight forward bend at the waist.