Progress Per Power Plyo Pistols Please

[Bradford]

Hello!

I have been reading so much useful information on this forum its great, but I have a new question...

I have a couple of kettlebells, a 25# and an 18#. I started doing pistols with both of them(43#). Before this I could manage quite a few with just my bodyweight; now I am doing roughly 15 or so in 10min (PR zone style). I bet I can do more soon, I just need to get used to using the weights. The whole reason I started this bodyweight-gymnastics thing is because I may not always and do not want to have weights around. I am using them now though to my advantage, and I plan on turning that into leg power. I do squat jumps on one of my workout days and would like to get to some jumping pistols too. Do people increase their power and height and weight etc with just power exercises likes jumps and such? I don't plan on having these KBs forever. So, am I going to be able to plyo-pistol my way up onto a chair or table or something eventually? Do you guys have a favorite explosive leg workout? I do pistols and squat jumps and single leg squat jumps and senders (stiff leg things?)

Your input would be much appreciated, thanks. Be Complete.

[Joshua Naterman]

Favorite explosive leg workout: Explosive deadlifts with 50-60% of 1RM, hang power snatch (can use closer to a clean grip if you want, this is about getting bar velocity and not the perfect snatch, depth box jumps (this is plyo, obviously).

Explosive box SLS jumps are fantastic, as are explosive box squat jumps. You want to eventually get the box down to where your lower thighs are parallel with the ground. When focusing on hip strength you should have the upper thigh parallel, which puts your iliac crest just slightly above the knee. This makes a huge difference in how fast you can move. I would still jump at the top so that you focus on progressive acceleration, but you will notice a big difference in what you can do.

Finally, lateral jumps are really important.

Make sure you're doing plenty of joint strengthening and stabilizer activation/strength work as well!

[Quick Start Test Smith]

Hey Sliz, I always get confused about this. When doing a box SLS squat (or any other kind of box something), are you supposed to lower yourself as usual, lightly touch the box, and lift off? Everyone I've seen doing box squats have paused substantially while on the box.

[Bradford]

I second that last query! Sort of... Are you JUMPING UP off of the box you are jumping up onto (one leg or both)?

That means you would be dropping from a pretty high level if you did (height of box plus height of another jump)...

Thanks

[Joshua Naterman]

Patrick: If you're just using a box for depth control then you would lightly touch and go back up. If you are using a box for training starting acceleration then you want to start by sitting on the box. From there you accelerate up and forward as hard as you can, and then you reset yourself on the box for the next rep. If you were doing this for height you could set a landing box in front of you so that you know you have to get a certain height, which can help since you have the incentive of not falling or missing the box to encourage a powerful movement.

Bradford, I don't think I understand what you are asking. Perhaps the explanation above will help. To be more clear, you have a box that you are starting off of. It could be a stack of cinder blocks, a couch, books and a staircase, or whatever else gets you to the right starting position. From there, if you were jumping up onto another box that would be completely separate from the box you are starting on.

[Bradford]

AH... Gotcha. I was not clear on the whole box thing, but I understand better now. I was thinking of what to do once you jumped up onto the second box. Much better.

Can you get good results with just the power training as far as gaining more strength? Will you only be able to powerfully use the strength you have or will you gain even more strength?

[Joshua Naterman]

There isn't a ton of carryover, they are kind of opposites in a way when used individually. With power training you are teaching your body to use what it already has more effectively by developing force more quickly, but this all by itself does not develop strength. You aren't developing MORE force, you are developing the force FASTER. This leads to a greater acceleration which leads to a higher jump or a harder hit.

Strength training is a bit different, since maximal strength work tends to inhibit maximal force development speed. When you're under heavy loads you move more slowly. This is part of why sub-maximal strength training actually works better for power athletes during the competitive season.

At any rate, you need power work to teach your body to use the strength it currently has to the greatest effect. You need strength work to increase the amount of maximal force you can develop, so that over time you have more strength for your power training to take advantage of. So in a very real sense "power" training is really all about SPEED.

400 lbs applied in .5 seconds is twice as powerful as 400 lbs applied in 1 second. That is what power is: how fast can you apply your strength? To peak, you have to train speed AND strength.

If you only do power training you will eventually reach the limit of your tissues and there will be an increased risk of injury. A certain amount of strength training is necessary to make sure you are not working at the limits of your tissue when performing at max power. You absolutely WILL become incredibly fast and powerful if done correctly, but this will not convert over into raw strength the way you would think.

[Bradford]

I see. This is all very interesting. Thank you, Slizzardman I have to say, I really appreciate the expertise.

Let me ask you this: Can I use the power training to maintain current strength? IE: in my case I can do a pistol with x amount of weight, so that level of strength enables me to jump (all other variables accounted for) a height of y. Once I give away those weights can I just keep jumping for y (or better) and still have the aforementioned level of strength (pistol with x weight in this case, or whatever)?

Also, you mentioned something like this may lead to increased risk of injury because this pushes tissue limits. What is that all about? I don't understand what happens. How do I combat it? Can I progress without more weight or always having my strength level way out in front of my speed/power level?

[Bradford]

The search engine on this forum truly does provide results.

For anyone interested in this, I found some great stuff by several of the forum's more esteemed participants. Just look around in dynamic strength (duh) and search for "plyometrics" and related topics. Great information; however, I am still not sure what happens if you commit to BWE only.

Do we usually reach the full potential from our lower bodies early? I do not want to speak out of turn as I am no pro athlete. I just want to have a strong and usable lower body and I don't know what comes next after what I do now. What's next?

[Quick Start Test Smith]

It sure does! I've gone through all of Slizzardman's and Ido's posts here (and Ido's post on his forum), and I'm just starting to go through Mr Brady's. : 8)

[Joshua Naterman]

Your strength will stabilize at some point, but I can't honestly tell you where. In my experience there is some strength loss but it's not like you go all the way back to ground zero. Some people maintain strength really well and others lose it quickly, so you'll have to find THAT one out on your own!

I will say that you should at least do a few reps of your normal SLS weight on a nearly daily basis for maintenance. Don't give away those weights if you can help it, they are really good tools. If nothing else, keep enough for your SLS work to be maintained.

As long as you are always jumping you will probably get better at jumping for a while, but that does not mean you will get stronger. This gets into the SAID principle, which basically means that your body gets better at what it is doing the most, and that strength carries over more to similar activities and less to non-similar activities even when the same muscles are involved.

Jumping is not the same as lifting since a good jump has many elements such as arm swing and body angle to take into account. But, single leg jump squats are a great exercise and you should be able to maintain a good bit of strength that way.

Almost no one ever reaches the full potential of anything. I can tell you pretty much for sure that there is no one alive who can't accomplish a 2-3x BW squat and at least a 3xBW DL at any kind of healthy bodyweight. If you're 15% BF or under those numbers are pretty much rock solid for minimum potential from anyone on the planet. The smaller you are the farther past those numbers you should be able to go, generally speaking.

That's just a basic illustration. In movement terms, there's no one alive below the age of 30 that shouldn't be able to develop a 36-40" vertical and a 11.5-ish 100m if they train for them specifically. Obviously that means not being horribly fat as well as strength/speed training. That's a pretty good jump and a pretty fast run if you didn't know. Nothing outrageous, but far beyond what is considered average. If you can do those two things you're pretty powerful and a pretty good athlete.

[Bradford]

Awesome. Slizzardman, I have to say I admire your conviction.

It is a beautiful truth that normal everyday people are capable of so much. All you need is some discipline and proper guidance (read: this forum), add water and stir. This is just one more area of life NOT to be mindless zombies in. We can wake up to potential for which we where created.

Having said all that, I will eventually have to part with the weights as I envision a more spartan/communal life in my future. Maybe if they are well shared a range of kettlebells may be in order, we shall see.

I did attempt Ido's shrimp leg thing though, pretty difficult, but I think I have it right. No momentum, quite slow and controlled. I will have to post a video so I can be corrected. I do not know what happens physiologically that makes it so much more difficult when you pull that leg back. I did some explosive jumping today too. I found a staircase and jumped to the fourth step, only 28" high but 56" inwards. I need something taller and nearer...

Also, I suppose I need something exclusively for the hams/glutes too? I am beginning work on my NLC. Seems like the posterior chain BW stuff is more difficult than the SLS stuff. Just the nature of the body.

People, that leads me to pose a routine question here:

How would you program a routine for your legs if you: were me, could do pistols, wanted to use ONLY BWE, wanted general athletic abilities-high jump, long jump, fast run, lift heavy stuff, and worked out MWF with possibly limited time. I don't know how often to train the plyo-explosive stuff. I dont' want to hurt my joints. It seems like I could do it often, like MWF and just nearly make it the whole lower body workout. Slizzardman's recommendation to keep up my SLS sounds good too. Am I asking too much? I don't know, but I feel like if I train all this stuff eventually I will just start flying or something. Isn't that what happens after you get past the one arm front lever?

Also, some extra input might be nice too. Do you work your legs and wish also to do it explosively? What do YOU do?

[Joshua Naterman]

I would pretty much do the WODs, and in your warm up I would do one set of submaximal SLS (like if you can do 8 just do 4 or 5) and something for posterior chain. I would also work HeS RLL in warm up, this helps me a lot personally. I'd start building my chin ups and pull ups so that I could eventually start OAC and OAP work, as this will build the grip as well as the upper body. I would seriously do a submaximal set of one exercise in each plane of motion, like HeSPU, PPP, Bulgarian row, XR dips, HLL and body lever, and so on. You'd end up doing maybe 8 exercises total, and this will help ensure that you keep all of your abilities and let them improve more rapidly without slowing down your healing. If you think about it, that shouldn't take but 5-10 minutes. After that I'd just do the WODs. It's 4x per week but they are really short, like 30 minutes if you're slacking some and 20-25 minutes if you're sticking to the schedule.

That will give you pretty reasonable abilities across a very wide range of movements, which is basically what you're asking for.

[AlexX]

That's just a basic illustration. In movement terms, there's no one alive below the age of 30 that shouldn't be able to develop a 36-40" vertical and a 11.5-ish 100m if they train for them specifically. Obviously that means not being horribly fat as well as strength/speed training. That's a pretty good jump and a pretty fast run if you didn't know. Nothing outrageous, but far beyond what is considered average. If you can do those two things you're pretty powerful and a pretty good athlete.

As far as I was able to tell, a 40 inch vertical is pretty elite level, considering that most professional football players are around the 36-38" mark. And mostly only top Olympic lifters are around the 38-40 inch mark as well. I am not saying it's out of reach for most, just that most people with a 40 inch vertical are at the top of their game. Where as a 11.5 100 meter dash is run by some high school girls (very gifted ones but girls none the less). I think a 35-36 inch vertical would coincide more with an 11.5 dash. But other than that most people highly underestimate what they are capable of.

[Joshua Naterman]

You might be right. 40 is pretty high, but it isn't THAT high. Some genetically ungifted people may be stuck in the low to mid thirties, but for the most part guys should be able to get some pretty good lift.

Those elite lifters don't train for vertical, so consider what they could do if they dedicated 6 months to vert training and put their O-lifts in maintenance mode! These days a 38-39" vertical is commonplace at the NFL combine with LINEMEN. Holy crap batman!!! 300+ lbs shooting up almost 40 inches? Good lord.

[AlexX]

You might be right. 40 is pretty high, but it isn't THAT high. Some genetically ungifted people may be stuck in the low to mid thirties, but for the most part guys should be able to get some pretty good lift.

Those elite lifters don't train for vertical, so consider what they could do if they dedicated 6 months to vert training and put their O-lifts in maintenance mode! These days a 38-39" vertical is commonplace at the NFL combine with LINEMEN. Holy crap batman!!! 300+ lbs shooting up almost 40 inches? Good lord.

Haha yeah that's a scary scenario. I'd hate to be on the receiving end of that tackle, in all honesty that would probably put me in the hospital with severe injuries haha.

[Bradford]

Slizzardman-thanks for the insight, after I go a little longer with what I am doing now I may just switch to the WODs- Is there really a better way? Why must I continue to ask routine questions? Not sure....

I just started the box jumps. I got almost 36" after just a try or two, so judging by the other comments recently I am off to a good start. Maybe 40" is a solid goal. I have not sprinted since high school, so I don't yet know my times. That 11.5s sounds pretty decent, those girls Alex mentioned earlier must be quick. I definitely want all-around fitness, but I also want to make the best of my time too. So that means intensity is the name of the game.

My goals are thus: One Arm Chin Up, Full ROM HSPU (eventually on rings-bonus), Full Front Lever, and Full Planche. As far as lower body I guess I will have to figure out some solid goals.

Training for the past week or so: Tried and true ABA-BAB format (is there a name for this?)

A: Warmup with L-sit 15x4, Adv. Front Lever 5x12, Somewhere between Tucked Planche and Adv. Tucked Planche 6x10.

Then a 10 minute PR Zone of horizontal pushing and pulling a'la Tucked FL Rows and sort-of tucked planche pushups on rings (i need to get stricter). Then I might do a finisher of ring rows and wide pushups to failure (not long ).

B: Same Warmup as A. Then 10 minute PR Zone of vertical pushing and pulling: Box HSPU with P-Bars, full ROM. And 1 arm holds at the top of my chin (counts to five). Then I might do a finisher of wall HSPU and wide grip chins.

I could do the wall HSPU pretty well, before I have gotten a PR of 27 in a 10 minute PR Zone. But, I figured I better start working that ROM too if I am to every get it on the rings.

So far my best has been: 27 on workout A and 16/30s workout B. ABA-BAB format works like this: week one-mon A, wed B, fri A. Week two- mon B, wed A, fri B. And it just goes back and forth. For the legs its an ABC type thing. Mon- SLS for warmup on all days, then sets of NLC. Wed- Plyo/jumping and whatnot. Fri- shrimp squat (glad I found something beyond the pistol ).

Pretty straightforward three day routine. I try to get it done in 20-30 minutes, and now that I am way up in my SLS numbers I don't have to devote too much attention to it, so it makes everything shorter.

Please comment, but I must ask two more questions-1) What makes the shrimp harder than regular SLS? Does it have something to do with the way our legs are yoked? 2) What can I do to flatten my back out in the planche? Maybe now that I can do it in the FL it will help me. The whole curved-back thing bothers me, it goes against my instincts.

Be Complete

[Joshua Naterman]

Take your time trying to flatten your back in the planche, it makes a HUGE difference in how much your muscles will have to work! For safety, PLEASE stick to 12 week SSC! SSC= Steady State Cycle. That means do exactly what you're doing for 12 weeks before you try to improve the position or add time or sets. After that 12 weeks take a new max hold and then do 50% of that for the NEXT 12 weeks. That's absolutely vital for planche training. Everyone here who has developed injuries has done so because they have not stuck to this. Just about everyone, to my knowledge, who has achieved great planche success without injury has done so through SSCs.

11.5 100m is fast, for sure.

As for the shrimp, I think it's the body angles and the fact that you are starting at 90 degrees, which is where resistance is the highest. You have no momentum to make it easier and you are starting with zero muscle tension, so you have to stabilize the joints starting in the hardest position. Pretty rough. Muscle recruitment is definitely different, but it is hard to describe. I believe, but do not know for sure, that this explanation is pretty accurate.

[Bradford]

Well, I totally failed...

Wednesday was terrible. It was supposed to be box HSPU on P Bars and OAC holds. But I was way to weak. I just did not have it in me. This ABA-BAB thing is just not going to work. At least not without more food and such. I don't know how much more I really need. I have a modest, healthy diet that I am committed to. And, I really do not feel comfortable with eating way too many calories and sleeping too much. Maybe some of that will have to change, but for now it seems like the routine is going to have to be tweaked a bit.

I am thinking of doing both sessions twice a week instead of alternating like before. Monday-Sessions A&B, Friday-A&B (see older posts for A&B). This does two things 1) it gives me more rest before doing a similar movement 2) it gives me more work in the same amount of time, I will now have 4 sessions every two weeks as opposed to three. But wait, wasn't I just complaining about being too tired?

Here is the clincher: Does this work? Will more rest time allow me to have my cake and eat it too with training MORE than my last schedule but still be more fresh next workout? I dunno... Also, what about Wednesday? I would like to do just a bit of leg/plyo training that day. But, somebody told me stimulus and recovery were "systemic" issues, meaning that my leg workout could hinder my recovery between Mon. and Fri. Is that true? I could just train legs and such Monday and Friday too, but then the workouts would be too long. Aargh! Thoughts on the routine change?

PS- I took it easy today (Friday) just a couple sets chins and dips, and a couple sets weighted SLS and NLC (which is alot like OAPU training for me if you catch my drift )

[Bradford]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Slizzardman- I will be taking your advice to rest. I have been pretty dedicated and soon might be a good time for a break. Are you a trainer or a coach or something?

[Joshua Naterman]

Yes, I am currently consulting with my former high school. I definitely focus on long term wellness as a means to achieving maximum athletic results.

Anyhow, yes I am a trainer and a coach. I am always learning more about coaching, it is very different from training individuals or even groups. I have definitely found that I absolutely love working with middle school and high school athletes, they are a fun group and seem to respond well to me. Of course I get right out there with them for the majority of stuff, so I think that helps. That and I"m a big guy who can move really well.

I actually got offered the opportunity to coach a boys gymnastics team but the time commitment was too much for me with school. That was sort of a weird deal since I understand GB pretty well but have no experience with the skill aspect of gymnastics, but apparently there are a lot of instructional materials that you get once you get your USA gymnastics coaching cert and you pretty much teach out of them. I didn't realize that. I think it would be fun, and it is nice to know that there are these opportunities floating around every so often.

For now I work with a few individuals and occasionally make an offer to an athlete with good work ethic, but it is rare to find one that really wants to put in the consistent time. I don't like having to chase them down, that's just not my style.

[Bradford]

Slizzardman- Cool, it sounds like you have your work cut out for you. The reason I ask is because of all your posts and being a mod. I supposed you and the others were in the industry somehow. Also, I may have an opportunity to go to Atlanta this year and wondered if you were open for business.

Also- I mentioned earlier that I took it easy during the Friday WO and then afterwards Saturday and then today which is Sunday (fun-fun-fun!)(Rested both days).

Also- I took a look at my diet and realized I am just not eating very much. Not as much as I thought anyways, I have never been a calorie counter. So I am going to throw some more fuel on the fire from now on in addition to practicing a tip or two I found on the forum.

Finally- I am going to go ahead and do both my A and B workouts Monday but for around half the volume. But, that might add up to the total volume of the previous schedule. Is that bad? We will see. I do them PR Zone style (I think I just like saying it). I say that, but lately I just have the workout timer going and have a goal in mind, IE: 10min-3 reps on the minute. Sortof doing a SSC-PR Zone thing. Kindof paradoxical huh? They are seemingly opposites in terms of when and how to increase difficulty, length etc. I just appreciate the mind frame of the PR Zone, so simple and effective.

To summarize, I am going to take it easy; but I am going to take it easy with the new program. Hopefully I don't come back to any "NO DON'T! YOU WILL..." By then it will be too late, I may have already exploded.

[Joshua Naterman]

If you make it out this way feel free to send me a message! I will do my best to work with the time you have available.

Many of us are in 'the business', so you've got a good amount of reliable information here.