Detailed question on scap-protraction in PL work

[Daniel Jorgensen]

Should shoulder protraction be like:

1: forward and down; high degree of pec activation

or

2: plain forward and slighty upwards; high degree of serratus anterior activation

Or is this just another example of over-thinking

[AlexX]

You are way over thinking this, do the one that feel stronger/easier for you. Very few people will do a move with the same exact muscle groups everyone does things a bit differently. Shrugging the shoulders up will help stabilize the shoulders in place and give a more stable pressing position (common technique powerlifters during a bench press).

[Daniel Jorgensen]

Very few people will do a move with the same exact muscle groups everyone does things a bit differently. Shrugging the shoulders up will help stabilize the shoulders in place and give a more stable pressing position (common technique powerlifters during a bench press).

What?

Disagree on the first part. On second part: The kinda shrugging you talk about is the exact opposite of protraction; and not to be used in PL work

[Erik Sjolin]

So the best way to think about what your shoulders should do is try to push them down and forward (say you're activating your lats and chest)? That seems like it would help to shorten the lever the body creates.

Sorry to jump in with my question Doc, but (pardon the internet phrasing) this thread is relevant to my interests.

[AlexX]

Very few people will do a move with the same exact muscle groups everyone does things a bit differently. Shrugging the shoulders up will help stabilize the shoulders in place and give a more stable pressing position (common technique powerlifters during a bench press).

What?

Disagree on the first part. On second part: The kinda shrugging you talk about is the exact opposite of protraction; and not to be used in PL work

Part one: Using iron cross as an example some people roll the shoulders forward others keep rolled back. This slight change changes the focus from the anterior deltoids assisting more (shoulders rolled forward) to the rear and lats (shoulders rolled back), some will also be in between.

Part two: Shrugging the shoulder up is not "the exact opposite of protraction" the exact opposite of protraction is retraction. Perhaps you misunderstood me but when I said shrugging the shoulder up I was talking about elevation not retraction. You can protract and elevate or protract and depress.

[Joshua Naterman]

Should shoulder protraction be like:

1: forward and down; high degree of pec activation

or

2: plain forward and slighty upwards; high degree of serratus anterior activation

Or is this just another example of over-thinking

Serratus is highly active in both directions. Serratus is a fan muscle, but you are actually activating the largest portion of it with scenario 1. Look at the picture and then imagine the lines of force. Nearly every fiber group will be active.

One thing to keep in mind is that when you do this, the lower traps have to be strong enough to keep the bottom (inferior) part of the scapula from lifting off of the rib cage. This is very important, because allowing this lifting or "winging" even a little bit changes all the angles of force and the tension on each of the muscles, fascial lines, and the shoulder socket itself. Ideally the entire upper body is active during planche and maltese, specifically everything that connects from scapula to ribcage and from scapular to upper arm. A weakness anywhere in either of those will cause serious problems down the line.

In scenario 2 you create a less stable scapula because you are lengthening so many muscles that attach to it. Some people can handle this and others can't, but as someone else pointed out that WILL make the effective length of your body's lever longer which will make things a bit harder all by itself. Add to that the increased risk of instability and therefore injury and you have some compelling reasons to shoot for #1.

During a press to handstand you will shift from 1 to 2 and then to completely open shoulders from what I have observed. I do not know this for sure.

[Tarun Suri]

Should shoulder protraction be like:

1: forward and down; high degree of pec activation

or

2: plain forward and slighty upwards; high degree of serratus anterior activation

Or is this just another example of over-thinking

Serratus is highly active in both directions. Serratus is a fan muscle, but you are actually activating the largest portion of it with scenario 1. Look at the picture and then imagine the lines of force. Nearly every fiber group will be active.

One thing to keep in mind is that when you do this, the lower traps have to be strong enough to keep the bottom (inferior) part of the scapula from lifting off of the rib cage. This is very important, because allowing this lifting or "winging" even a little bit changes all the angles of force and the tension on each of the muscles, fascial lines, and the shoulder socket itself. Ideally the entire upper body is active during planche and maltese, specifically everything that connects from scapula to ribcage and from scapular to upper arm. A weakness anywhere in either of those will cause serious problems down the line.

In scenario 2 you create a less stable scapula because you are lengthening so many muscles that attach to it. Some people can handle this and others can't, but as someone else pointed out that WILL make the effective length of your body's lever longer which will make things a bit harder all by itself. Add to that the increased risk of instability and therefore injury and you have some compelling reasons to shoot for #1.

During a press to handstand you will shift from 1 to 2 and then to completely open shoulders from what I have observed. I do not know this for sure.

But Slizz, isn't scenario 2 something that you often wrote about doing while doing L Sits on XR?) yourself? I remember you posting something along the lines of: with scapula retracted and depressed ... What a difference that makes! Or am I very confusing two very different concepts?

[Joshua Naterman]

You are confusing a few things, but that's ok! I am finding that for pull ups, chins, dips and muscle ups retraction + depression leads to massive strength increases. That's back and down with the shoulderblades, attempting to hold them there for the majority of the ROM. I believe most people will find themselves unable to properly move into that position from a dead hang and maintain it, which should be a wake up call.

You know that muscle up from Andreas Aguilar that we all think is so crazy? Watch his shoulders: no elevation, no forward roll. It's crazy, his scaps are staying completely motionless. That's the kind of strength that leads to all around high level upper body strength. Muscles attaching scaps to rib cage/thorax must be beefcake strong. They control the position of the shoulder socket exclusively and that makes them the most important thing to train. Ability to control the shoulder socket position under heavy load = extreme upper body strength. That's it. Simple math.

As long as your scap to thorax/rib cage muscles are strong enough there's probably not much danger in scenario 2 either, but that scenario is probably currently limited to the guys who are training with Coach directly or have been similarly prepared. The shoulder program is core to their success.

No matter what you do with your upper body, those muscles all have to be active. You will tend to be in a neutral position in support positions, but as you remember I have found that the down + back shoulderblades are enormously helpful in Manna work. That's probably the primary benefit from the manna work, actually.

[Tarun Suri]

Starting to make more sense. Thanks for elaborating. I thought it was impossible to retract and depress during a dip (unless you mean most of the ROM, because I don't see it possible at the very bottom). However, I do know that the majority of folks internally rotate prematurely.

My current progression map was something like this (on PB): Support, support retracted and depressed (R&D), L tuck, L tuck (R&D), etc. Do you think my current map is naive? Is it only feasible in the earlier stages of the L sit, straddle, support (XR as well) positions. Heck, while we're on the subject, what about hanging positions?

I was doing: Hang, hang active (reacted and depressed?), then all the L positions follow suit.

[Cole Dano]

Maybe its fair to say that everyone has a 'sweet spot' where the shoulder blades are the most stable feeling. I'd say for most its going to be more towards #1 however, in searching for the sweet spot you can't over do either, so it will not always be 100% protraction and depression, it may be 85% / 90%.

One general rule i find to work for me is the shoulder blades need to stabilize in the opposite position from where gravity will put them.

E.g. in a dip if you relax the shoulder blades they elevate and protract, so dips we try to depress and retract, again looking for the sweet spot.

[AlexX]

One general rule i find to work for me is the shoulder blades need to stabilize in the opposite position from where gravity will put them.

I follow this rule as well, works quite well for most exercises. Once I started to implement it I felt a difference in almost every exercise. It wasn't just that the shoulder felt more stable but it made a difference in the pressing/pulling motion (if there was one).

[Joshua Naterman]

Yep. Just making the effort creates a noticeable increase in strength, and eventually developing the ability to actually hold and move into the correct scapular position makes a huge difference. I was showing someone a straight bar muscle up on the frame of the cable machine and I did it with almost no forward lean. I was very surprised, I haven't done anything like that in a long time. The constant work I do using scapular retraction + depression for muscle up transitions is making a huge difference. I still have a very, very long way to go but it's a start. You can see a massive difference between the divisions of my traps, the lower ones are barely there.

[Tarun Suri]

Thanks for the reply guys. Much clearer now. I especially like Mr Brady's general rule.

[learningtofly]

Wow.

Add a little more here and there, re-arrange it eventually and we could have a sticky I guess.

There are many occasions to write it, but just to say Slizzardman's precision and intellectual probity is really precious...

I love this forum

[pogo69]

I am finding that for pull ups, chins, dips and muscle ups retraction + depression leads to massive strength increases. That's back and down with the shoulderblades, attempting to hold them there for the majority of the ROM. I believe most people will find themselves unable to properly move into that position from a dead hang and maintain it, which should be a wake up call.

I tried this with my morning MU practise yesterday. and yes, it was very difficult to maintain, particular in the transition. I'll keep at it with the morning practise - while it is a great deal harder (I'm back to needing assistance in the transition), I can already feel that it helps maintain a straight body line (no forward lean) throughout the movement.

[Marlon]

I'm really glad this topic came up, It's really cleared some things up for me when it comes to planche training. I've been struggling lately with what positions to put my scaps in with almost everything I'm doing. Lots of hand balancing has basically made protraction and elevation my comfort zone in all movements :roll: it's great for hand balancing and press handstands, but for planche work I know i need to start making a conscious effort to switch from the really strong scapula elevation that I've been working with (and which I believe is causing me to stagnate to a large degree) to depression. The same goes with pretty much every pulling movement imaginable, depression and retraction are something I have to desperately fight for everytime I train.

[Erich Lin]

This thread is pretty sweet!

Taking it a step further, would this be correct in terms of planes of motion. R = retract P = protract E = elevate D = depressed

Pull

Pullups R+D

Rows R+D

Invert R+E

Push

Dips R+D

Pushups P+D

HSPU P+E (not sure why protraction here, but i'm going along with marlon's reply)

And then for statics:

Lsit - R+D

Straddle L - R+D

Manna - R+D

Planche - P+D

Front Lever - R+D

Back Lever - P? +D?

Handstand - P? + E

[Joshua Naterman]

This thread is pretty sweet!

Taking it a step further, would this be correct in terms of planes of motion. R = retract P = protract E = elevate D = depressed

Pull

Pullups R+D

Rows R+D

Invert R+E

Yep.

Push

Dips R+D

Pushups P+D

HSPU P+E (not sure why protraction here, but i'm going along with marlon's reply)

This is more iffy. Depression for sure with the first two, but you move from retraction to protraction while staying in depression. You don't go ALL the way unless you're doing it on purpose at the end of the ROM, but the change does happen to some degree. It's almost like going from full retraction to less retraction than all the way into full protraction.

HSPU are... different. Elevation happens for sure, but you don't just shrug up before you start. There is some protraction but again not full protraction. You're not wrapping all the way to the outside of the ribcage I don't think, but I am not the expert on handstand stuff. Handbalancer and Ido can tell us the proper details there.

And then for statics:

Lsit - R+D

Straddle L - R+D

Manna - R+D

Planche - P+D

Front Lever - R+D

Back Lever - P? +D?

Handstand - P? + E

Straddle L would be more like P+D I believe. Same as planche, really.

BL I am unsure of, to be honest, and I would feel more comfortable with one of our handstand experts telling us that one as well, as I said above.

[Foghorn]

erichlin wrote:

This thread is pretty sweet!

Taking it a step further, would this be correct in terms of planes of motion. R = retract P = protract E = elevate D = depressed

Pull

Pullups R+D

Rows R+D

Invert R+E

Slizzardman agreed with this and it makes sense.

However, I need some clarifcation - in describing the chin grip hang (part of prerequisites and warmup protocols from other threads) it has been stated that the "shoulders should be extended up near the ears". This appears to contradict the above and Mr Brady's rule of thumb (earlier in this thread).

Can someone please help me understand this apparent difference? I guess it boils down to knowing what the purpose of the ching grip hang actually is.

Cheers

[Erich Lin]

I'm confused how this contradicts mr. brady's rule of thumb. when you are hanging via a pullup bar, your shoulders are being pulled to your ear. YOu are trying to counteract this by depressing your scapular.

When ther eis no bar, however, and your hands are raised, then gravity is depressing your scapular. At this point, you would shrug.

Or am i mistaken in my analysis?

[Foghorn]

erichlin - thanks for your response.

This is probably my misunderstanding of the earlier instruction re chin up grip dead hang. I find that when I attempt to retract and depress my scapula in a dead hang (the resist gravity comment above) then my shoulders are no longer near my ears but are in fact retracted and depressed.

So is the chin grip dead hang about an extreme range of motion i.e. extending shoulders to ears as per handstand or is it strengthening the scapula in the retracted depressed position or the third option that I have no idea what I'm talking about!

[Erich Lin]

i think it is the R+D, which is the opposite of handstand, but i defer the true answer to the experts

[Cole Dano]

In a non-dead hang pull up, the ROM is somewhat limited, often the arms don't fully straighten and the scaps don't fully release to the hang at the bottom.

With a deadhang one fully releases so the shoulders come to the ears and then fully repacks and then begins the pull up.

[Foghorn]

Mr Brady - thanks for your response. I understand what we are attempting to do during an actual pull-up but my confusion arises with the static chin grip deadhang. As per the thread below(copied for convenience)

Just for completeness

Report this postReply with quoteRe: Getting Started Correctly

by PhilipP on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:57 am

Hi,

For the underhand hangs should I have my shoulders pulled into the socket or should i let them shrug up. Just curious for shoulder health. thanks

PhilPhilipP

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Report this postReply with quoteRe: Getting Started Correctly

by Mr Brady on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:56 pm

Full hang, you want the scapula to 'reach' for the ears, tailbone for the heels.

So in the full hang we do not retract and depress the scapula - we stay in the bottom of a full dead hang pull-up. Scapula retraction and depression only occur if one wants to do an actual pull/chin up. Is that correct?

This is what I have been doing but this current thread created som edoubt in my mind.

[Joshua Naterman]

Right. The shoulder stays in the socket while the scaps rise all the way up. In other words, your traps are stretching out. You never let your shoulder come out of the socket, that's terrible for the joint and connective tissue. Your delts and external rotators and biceps/triceps will all have tension that keeps the ball of the humerus solidly placed in the shoudler socket. The shoulder socket is part of the scapula, so remember that the scapular is moving but the shoulder is not coming out of the socket. That should be a given, because your body isn't going to let you do that anyways unless you either have some seriously dysfunctional neural patterns and/or you have suffered severe shoulder trauma in the past and have not fully recovered.