L-Sit progressions and Iron Cross form

[Ryan Verma]

Heyo,

I had a couple questions about the L-Sit and Iron Cross and was unable to find the answer with the search i did quickly.

I'm a pretty inflexible guy (currently only able to touch my toes after 5 mins of stretching) and one of the FSPs I'm having the most trouble with is the L sit. I can hold an L-sit low for 30-40s and a proper L-sit for 10-15s. Should I attempt to progress with it in the same manner as the other FSPs? ie working sets use use 15-20s in L-sit low for 3-4 sets and on the heavy day, hold an L-sit for 7s for 2-3 sets? I typically train the L-sit with the other FSPs in my warmup, but should I give it more attention after the warmup before doing the WOD?

The second question is iron cross form and training and I'll get to it after I explain what I did. I believe I satisfy coach's pre-requisites for iron cross training, but I'm still taking it slowly. I started yesterday and treated it like another FSP, holding a "high" iron cross (wide support hold) with my arms at roughly 45 degrees from my torso for 10-15s for 4 sets. I also did some pulls, where I held the 45 degree cross and pulled to support. I did this in the skill training part of the workout (after the FSP warmups, but before the WOD) and I'm not feeling obnoxiously sore today. My biceps feel worked when I flex them but no DOMS, and my elbows seem fine.

To finally get to my two part question: where can I find the proper technique for holding the rings and the position of the shoulders? And am I approaching the training aspect of this correctly?

I watched many videos of gymnasts actually doing the cross and noticed they seem to have almost a false grip when they're in the iron cross. I've also read that the technique involves rolling your shoulders forward so that the inner part of your elbow is pointing somewhat toward the ground. I applied these two things yesterday and it felt OK, but before I go any further, I'd like to get some clarification from the pros.

Thanks

edit: In retrospect, this probably belongs in a different section of the forums, since IC stuff is not really considered basic strength. However, I'm approaching it from a beginner's point of view, so maybe this topic has a place here... If the mods disagree, please feel free to move it. Sorry for the trouble.

[learningtofly]

Well,

I've just posted a question on L-sit and truely believe you just shouldn't work IC with only a 15s proper L-sit. The shoulder girdle and stabilizators need to be far stronger than that I guess...

If your L-sit keep failing because of a flexibility issue (wich seems possible but only to an extend), can you hold a 60s chest-up support on rings ?

After trying those high "cross dips", don't you feel any pain in the upper part of the shoulder (around the acromion) ?

Eric

[Ryan Verma]

I genuinely believe that my L-sit woes are due to a lack of flexibility and a lack of core strength to overcome the lack of flexibility. Since I CAN touch my toes, the flexibility obviously exists, but my core can only maintain the proper L-sit for 10-15s. Since the L-sit is such a fundamental gymnastic position, I really want to become proficient with it, which is why I was requesting some advice regarding the training for it.

I can hold a proper support position (shoulders shrugged down, rings turned out, locked arms, not resting on lats) for 50s. Beyond this, it starts to get shaky and I start to lose stability, but I can maintain locked arms for another 10-15s or so before releasing. Coach's list of pre-requisites covers this hold, and Slizzardman mentioned that the minimum duration to be held is 60s.

I feel no pain whatsoever, aside from that slight muscle soreness in my biceps from the IC. That was one of the indications to me that I was doing it right... in my understanding, the IC puts a lot of pressure on the biceps and elbows.

[Alexander Moreen]

There are a couple different cross techniques you can do, but false grip and shoulders forward is the one you probably want to do since it allows you to make a transition to other moves. You can even do a cross with no false grip, but its harder.

Go very slow on your progressions here, everything post 45 degrees is significantly harder than what came before. IMO getting a solid 60s 45 degree hold and then working everything farther than that for up to 15 seconds(as if it were a straddle of any other fsp) would be advisable. That seems to be a pretty safe bet to me.

Think about getting some lightweight resistance bands to assist you, I've personally made much faster progress doing it that way. You can either stand or sit on them with the band attached to each ring or have the band in front of you and just use the compression of the band to assist.

[learningtofly]

I can hold a proper support position (shoulders shrugged down, rings turned out, locked arms, not resting on lats) for 50s. Beyond this, it starts to get shaky and I start to lose stability, but I can maintain locked arms for another 10-15s or so before releasing. Coach's list of pre-requisites covers this hold, and Slizzardman mentioned that the minimum duration to be held is 60s.

Well, you're stronger than I am and I can hold L-sit on floor 30s, so definitly is a flexibility issue for you...

Maybe working on that to open the work toward MSH / Manna etc (even press handstands) could be a very safe idea :wink:

Good luck for IC work...Go slow...

[Blairbob]

What ring strength are you currently capable to feel that you are ready to start training crosses? I'm not trying to be an ass. Heck, right now I have hands full with just doing MU anymore.

Back when I trained crosses, I had both my levers down, some ability at straddle planche on floor but never had worked ring HS or some of the more exotic dipping progressions, nor a full ROM HSPU or even cross flys. I had a fairly poor L press on PB that I never worked on rings ( laugh, but to get into a HS I would have to lower the rings which meant I could not hang in a fully extended dead hang from the rings).

[Ryan Verma]

I based my level of preparedness on Coach's list that I found in a search:

Elbow Preparation Series for Iron Cross Work:

1) XR support hold - Focusing on elbows locked and straight is critical here.

a) It is also quite acceptable to insert both XR support swings and XR swinging supports into this phase. 10 repetitions of large XR swinging supports can be especially challenging, as well as a lot of fun , while struggling to maintain the correct position.

2) XR L-sit.

3) XR 1/2 press - During this element, the athlete will press up as high as possible into a half press HS maintaining completely locked elbows and rings turned out at all times. Do not attempt to press higher than it is possible for you to maintain the correct arm/elbow position. Please note that this is an essential element in this progression.

4) XR HS - There should be a substantial degree of pressure on the biceps during a correctly performed XR HS. If this pressure is not present, in all likelihood either the elbows are bent or the rings are not turned out.

5) XR Planche variations - Some individuals may find that they are physically strong enough to proceed directly from XR HS work to the iron cross training as planche training can be a time consuming proposition. However for those who see it through, achieving a solid planche prior to beginning serious iron cross work will pay substantial dividends in the long term.

6) XR Iron Cross work.

Ring strength as follows:

support hold - ¬60s

full back lever - 15s

single leg FL - 15-20s

flat tuck planche - 10s or so

tuck planche on rings - 10-15s

ring HS - I can't press to HS from support with straight arms (not even close lol) but I can hold a ring HS with rings turned (mostly) out if I lower the rings to the ground and kick up into the HS and have my legs resting on the straps. I can't turn them out as far as I would if I was holding a support just because my shoulders don't move that far in their sockets.

full ROM HSPU on parallets - I can do 1-2 at a time

gymgreg gave me a link in PMs for iron cross progressions (http://www.cathletics.com/articles/arti ... ticleID=32)

As a update, I've been working on weighted pike stretches and I've added more L-sits to my warmup. I also do a few sets straddle dragon flags (3x5-8) every couple days to try and increase my core strength. I don't know what else to do, so I thought I'd just try this for a couple weeks and see if I get anywhere.

[Blairbob]

A false grip is sometimes used for strength holds or routines but it is to be discouraged.

[Ryan Verma]

Thanks, I'll avoid using a false grip for the IC from now on. Is it discouraged because it makes it easier? Or because it doesn't look good?

[Gregor]

You should choose the easiest technique for you (of course there is not only one for IC).

If your final goal is IC then work without false grip, if you wanna achieve maltese and iron cross presses to maltese then work on it.

[Michael Traynor]

You have started IC training with only a strap assisted HS on the rings?

It was my interpretation that you had to have a free standing ring HS?

Could someone help clarify this as my strap assisted HS is nearly 2 mins but my free standing ring HS is non existent so if I am allowed to train IC now i'd love to know as I was waiting until I had free standing ring hs.

[Ryan Verma]

Gregor, thanks for your input. I'll play around and see which grip I prefer. I'm guessing that a false grip would make transitioning from IC to maltese easier. I'm very far from that, but that is a good long term goal. Maybe in 3-5 years with consistent training...

Breaks, it was my understanding that the HS on rings requirement was to establish enough bicep and elbow strength for the IC. If I understand the difference between a strap supported and a free standing HS on rings correctly, there is no difference in pressure on the biceps/elbows, only in the muscles required to stabilize yourself on the rings. I have only just started being able to do free standing handstands for 10s+, so if the requirement is actually to maintain a freestanding ring HS, I'm hooped.

[Gregor]

I didn't talked about grip technique, but shoulder rotation and elbow rotation when doing IC, second sentence was about false grip when I talked about pogressions from IC to maltese.

[Ryan Verma]

Oh I see! I understand now, thanks

[Dillon Zrike]

rmandawg1,

The ring HS should be free standing for at least 15s (coach may want more) with RTO before serious cross work should start. I know that it is exciting to start crosses but skipping progressions usually ends up being a bad idea. Do you have a ring planche? The elbow pressure is much more intense in a cross than it is in a planche. If you can not handle the pressure in a planche, you will not be happy working crosses. If you do not care about planches at least do feet supported planche leans for supplementary work.

If you do decide to do planches first, I would say a solid 5s straddle planche is enough to start cross work.

Dillon

[Ryan Verma]

DOH! Ok, I'll wait until I can do a freestanding ring HS before working IC. The most advanced planche I can do on rings is flat tuck (which is also the most advanced planche I can do on the ground) so I'll keep working on that as well.

Thanks very much for the feedback everyone!

[Gregor]

Don't progress if you feel any discomfort after training or element worked on.

[Ryan Verma]

That's the thing... I didn't feel any discomfort in the days following, but I understand that tendon injuries can compound, meaning that I would probably feel the effects of overtraining in a couple weeks if I continued to train IC.

I plan to stick with this type of training for a long time, so I'll just be patient and wait until I have the pre-requisites that Dillon recommended. Better safe than sorry, as they say!