Thoughts on CrossFit?

[Asclepius]

What are all your thoughts on CrossFit, since it regularly incorporates gymnastics movements?

Good? Bad?

Lack of programming?

Unstructured?

Dangerous movements?

[Newguy]

Uh Oh. This could (Will) get some "Interesting" Opinions

[Larry Roseman]

First, whether it is good or bad FOR YOU is not for anyone else to decide.

That is up to you. Everyone has different needs and character, and it may be

the best thing in the world for you, or perhaps the worst.

I personsally find Crossfit "interesting" in that it does a pretty good job mixing up modalities in workout.

That is a concept that was new to me, an it helped me get more into fitness, because frankly I got bored

out of my goard doing say 45 mins of low-grade cardio followed by half-hour of 8-10 rep weights or visa-versa.

The typical health club intro level workout just was too lifeless. That said, whether the crossfit "metcon" or metabolic conditioning really has any intrinsic value beyond being interesting is subject to debate. It's a jack of all trades

approach, that avoids specialization and limits growth in any one area.

Keep in mind though that each affiliate may have somewhat different programming than the other, and that they don't all follow the main site WOD. Some may use more running, some may emphasise olympic lifting. It may depend upon the weather conditions in the part of the country they are in, and the equipment that affilliate has available. Also certain sub movements have devloped such as Crossfit Endurance, and Crossfit OLY I believe, that do offer more specialization while retaining the "overall" approach that makes Crossfit what it is.

What I like about it is:

1) The Bodyweight work

2) Kettlebells

3) Rowing

4) Sprints

5) Potential for gymnastic stuff

6) Supportive environment, push for improvement

What I don't like about it is:

1) Nutritional guidance

2) Heavy reliance on Weights

3) Working out until you collapse mentality (faster is good, more is good, more and faster until you drop is best)

4) It considering itself a sport (as per the crossfit games) - the sport of workout.

5) Yelling/screaming, mindless group-think

6) Not enough personal say in what I do

I'm not sure where you find the programming lacking - there seems to be enough of it provided in the WOD

from the main site. The mainsite has a pretty good journal that explains more about the programming as well.

From what I've read the WOD over a period of months are supposed to have a logical structure to them.

Whether it does or not I can not say.

Whether it is dangerous? Obviously if you move heavy weights around quickly as form decays there is potential

risk, if not to yourself then to your fellows :-) If you work to the point of muscle liquification, that is obviously dangerous. If you work through acute pain, you are risking more serious damage. It certain that there are going to be a lot of soft tissue injuries coming out of the group, however I don't know it is known that are are statistically more than with any other intesnse training method.

They have incorporated a lot of good things such as gymnastics, rowing, olympic weight lifting, sprinting and high protein

dieting. These things are good on their own when applied correctly. Whether they are good, better or worse all together is the question! Perhaps the answer is given in that are these specilization tracks within the group that are thriving.

I would not be surprised if there were a Crossfit Gymnastics already, if not soon. It may turn out turning on more people to

the specialities that make it up, than to its own unique combination of them.

[Archie Moses]

There is a crossfit gymnastics wod, there is even a CF gymnastics certification. It is a bit scary to imagine someone with no knowledge of gymnastics attempting a gymnastics WOD. I know after reading a book and this forum for a long time I still have trouble scaling movements and following proper progressions.

What I am curious about is, why do some of the guys here on the board, who are doing the GB wods, and are advanced or advancing, wy do you still bother with CF wods?

It seems to me that if you love the GB work, and have the work capacity, you would do MORE gymnastics work, not a CF wod or other type of metcon work. From what I understand, work capacity is specific.

I would love to hear input from people doing both, or who have once done both.

[Asclepius]

I hope I'm not opening up a can of worms with this thread, but I find CrossFit ideology interesting and that it has some potential to be a great workout program. Whether or not it already is a great workout program is something I am still trying to find out.

As far as the programming, I was really referring to long-term programming. At first glance, it would appear that it has zero programming at all and is just a slop of stuff thrown together. After talking to some people who seem to be very knowledgable in the CF programming though (somehow), there are apparently microcycles and mesocycles to it, i.e. an actual true method to the madness.

As far as dangerous goes, I was really referring to some of the common movements that are utilized by the program, namely the kipping pull ups and other things like sumo-deadlift high-pulls. Other people more knowledgable in kinesiology would probably be able to answer this better (such as slizzardman or others), but from what I have learned from the Gymnastic Bodies forums, the kipping pull ups and SDHPs are recipes for ruined shoulders, no matter how good your technique with them are (read: the movements themselves are the problem, not the practitioner). Again, I may be wrong about this, but if so, please correct me.

[Larry Roseman]

There is a crossfit gymnastics wod, there is even a CF gymnastics certification. It is a bit scary to imagine someone with no knowledge of gymnastics attempting a gymnastics WOD. I know after reading a book and this forum for a long time I still have trouble scaling movements and following proper progressions.

What I am curious about is, why do some of the guys here on the board, who are doing the GB wods, and are advanced or advancing, wy do you still bother with CF wods?

It seems to me that if you love the GB work, and have the work capacity, you would do MORE gymnastics work, not a CF wod or other type of metcon work. From what I understand, work capacity is specific.

I would love to hear input from people doing both, or who have once done both.

Is the Gymnastic WOD here comparable as a workout to the general Crossfit WOD? To me they are two different animals.

Here it is specific strength for gymnastics, there it is amount of WORK performed using major muscle groups.

I myself would not do just gymnastics workouts, and would still do other conditioning - but not Crossfit.

[Larry Roseman]

I hope I'm not opening up a can of worms with this thread, but I find CrossFit ideology interesting and that it has some potential to be a great workout program. Whether or not it already is a great workout program is something I am still trying to find out.

As far as the programming, I was really referring to long-term programming. At first glance, it would appear that it has zero programming at all and is just a slop of stuff thrown together. After talking to some people who seem to be very knowledgable in the CF programming though (somehow), there are apparently microcycles and mesocycles to it, i.e. an actual true method to the madness.

As far as dangerous goes, I was really referring to some of the common movements that are utilized by the program, namely the kipping pull ups and other things like sumo-deadlift high-pulls. Other people more knowledgable in kinesiology would probably be able to answer this better (such as slizzardman or others), but from what I have learned from the Gymnastic Bodies forums, the kipping pull ups and SDHPs are recipes for ruined shoulders, no matter how good your technique with them are (read: the movements themselves are the problem, not the practitioner). Again, I may be wrong about this, but if so, please correct me.

it is always better to ask a specific question to avoid drawing out long answers.

It sounds like you've received an answer regarding the programming from "very knowledagble" CF people. Do you disagree with it and are you seeking another answer that confirms your belief?

I can't comment on kipping, though I understand that sumo deadlift (or at least squat) can be used by people with longer femurs more successfully than regular deadlift. I found the low shoulder position advocated for the squat bar did a number on my shoulders - they also advocate using shoulder mobilizations to reach that point and but I hadn't read that first (my bad).

[Asclepius]

Let's just say I am still very skeptical about the overall programming. What I supposedly learned does not change the fact that you may do an exercise and then not see it again for more than a month.

[AlexX]

If a program is good solely depends on your goals. If you have specific goals you want to obtain (eg. Iron cross, 200 lbs lean weight, compete in powerlifting, olympic lifting etc.) then crossfit is one of the worst ways to go about it. However, for someone wanting to get back in shape with no specific goals other than to look and feel better it's not bad. Major downside of crossfit is

A. lack of specialization. You can't be good at everything, hell when compared to the sports they emulate they don't even have people at the intermediate level at everything.

B. People are different, one program does not fit all. For example due to shoulder problems I am unable to do olympic lifts with any significant intensity (it's not technique related it's a physiological problem). If I did crossfit I'd end up at my local surgeons for sure.

[Archie Moses]

FIN - I don't really understand the first part of what you said in response to my post, perhaps I was unclear. I was not at all comparing anything CF related to the GB wod.

What I am interested in is why people that are advancing in BtGB training, would also do crossfit, rather than more STRENGTH work.

Maybe I should have said more strength related work, instead of more gymnastic work.

[Rafael]

I was really interested in Crossfit, and was in the process of selecting Olympic Weight sets etc. when I happened across this forum. I was always really intrigued by crossfit, and thought the physiques it helps make were quite impressive. However, I was more impressed with the information in this forum, and so instead of buying olympic weights etc, I ordered pkg 2 from the store (and saved about $600). IMO the gymnastic training is more appealing, and depending what you think you might need to do in life, more functional. That's just my rather uneducated opinion though.

[Michael Traynor]

This thread is worth reading if you want to know some people's opinion on CF it should answer some of is "CF dangerous?"

http://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4965

[Larry Roseman]

This thread is worth reading if you want to know some people's opinion on CF it should answer some of is "CF dangerous?"

http://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4965

It's worth reading. Mainly it is about a Crossfit gymnastic WOD and how it is poorly designed.

Not a lot in this thread about injurious movements, even within the gymnastic realm.

The general endurance vs. specific strength theme was repeated several times...

One maybe can argue that a bad routine is intrinsically dangerous, but in most cases I think it is just plainly ineffective.

[Larry Roseman]

Let's just say I am still very skeptical about the overall programming. What I supposedly learned does not change the fact that you may do an exercise and then not see it again for more than a month.

True.

Keep in mind, they are going for the overall "metabolic conditioning" in all the WOD by going all out, more than any specific strength gains. So from their perspective the specific action doesn't matter as much, as long as it trains the underlying energy system.

Also most affliates have their own programming and most serious CFers do side work anyway, so end up

more balanced athletes despite the main site WOD

Still the metcon is not a proven approach ... just a catchy gimmick to me. I suppose I believe it has no true value except that it breaks the monotony. Still, there are smarter ways to program high intensity work to do that.

[Larry Roseman]

FIN - I don't really understand the first part of what you said in response to my post, perhaps I was unclear. I was not at all comparing anything CF related to the GB wod.

What I am interested in is why people that are advancing in BtGB training, would also do crossfit, rather than more STRENGTH work.

Maybe I should have said more strength related work, instead of more gymnastic work.

Archie, in terms of doing other upper-body strength training, yes that is a different question. I suppose it wouldn't be neccessary unless it were to work on a structural imbalance or part of rehab.

Still, it probably depends upon where people are coming from. Some people may come from a heavy lifting background and still enjoy doing that. Some people may be using GB for crosstraining or co-training more than for their primary modality, but still want to progress and succeed in GB. It's not an either-or proposition like a religion, I feel.

[Joshua Naterman]

What are all your thoughts on CrossFit, since it regularly incorporates gymnastics movements?

Good? Bad?

Lack of programming?

Unstructured?

Dangerous movements?

The biggest issue with crossfit is that it does not have a good balance between low intensity cardio training, higher intensity anaerobic training, explosive work, plyometrics and maximal strength.

You'll notice there is almost no maximal strength, low intensity cardio, or plyometric work in CF. The main plyo work they do are kipping pull ups, though there are some sled sprints. Yes, sprints are technically plyometric. Stretch-shortening cycle = plyometric.

Most of the work mainsite prescribes is primarily done for anaerobic endurance. Yes, there is O-lifting but they go for massive volume. That is the exact opposite of what you want to do with a skill movement unless the load is extremely low. Their O-lifting is also centered around actual O-lifts, as in the sport, instead of using the variations that are most productive for athletic performance, which are essentially just power snatches (and to change it up power cleans) from a hang. Floor lifts are a great way to change the CNS stimulation, but they are not as valuable in terms of specific athletic performance unless you are actually competing in O-lifting.

The top competitors in the cross fit games train very differently from what Mainsite suggests. In that sense, CF really doesn't even exist as a protocol.

The basis behind Crossfit, which is cross training aka doing as much different stuff as you can, is at the root of strongman training going back as far as history itself. It is 100% TRUE that the more different things you do, the better you will perform. There are a ton of reasons for this that are fully based in physiology.

The basics are that every time you repeat something your body is more efficient at it. Efficiency is ideal for sport performance movements, because that means you are using minimal muscle involvement to complete a given sport-specific task. It should be obvious from that one sentence that using minimal muscle involvement is the worst way to try to get stronger. You want to do things that your body has never done before so that it is forced to maximize muscle recruitment! If you can go 8 weeks without repeating an exercise you have just created the perfect routine. This requires a lot of knowledge to create, but if you look at exercise selections from the WODs you will see that this is very nearly what Coach has created.

That is also why SSC work is not supposed to be taking up most of your energy. It is supposed to have its place, and not wear you out. The SSC is developing efficiency in specific, very important positions. Yes, many positions also strengthen tendon attachments over time, which is also important. However, the main strength progress comes from the WODs, and for the exact reason I gave above.

Crossfit mainsite's primary failure is not in exercise selection but rather in proper modulation of training effects.

You only need to do high intensity "metcon" work every 3rd day to maximize the effects. Think about that one. That is based on the time it takes for mitochondrial density to peak after a strong anaerobic glycolysis stimulus. It only takes once every 5-6 days to maintain a pretty high level of conditioning once you have achieved it. Clearly then, it is not ideal to be doing metcon work 4-5 days a week. That's a waste of good training time.

[Larry Roseman]

So Slizard, to the question of there being dangerous movements, it sounds like that is not the biggest concern of yours.

I agree with that. It's like guns - there are no dangerous guns only dangerous people

I think the weaknesses you mention is why there are tracks now that are specializing and promoting more traditional

training, with a CF twist of course. Crossfit Endurance, OLY, etc.

But I think CF would disagree with you about their multiplexing programming promoting efficency.

That is what they are trying, in theory at least, to avoid by mixing it up so much.

Anyway, no time for this today - work deadlines! :wink:

[Asclepius]

So slizzardman, are you saying that Coach (referring to Coach Sommer) has nearly perfected this programming, whereas CrossFit programs far too much metcon and not enough other things (such as strength work)? (I'm not sure which Coach you were referring to at one point.)

If not, then is there really a program better than CrossFit for a jack-of-all-trades workout? SealFit seems pretty good, but it is basically the same thing, just a TON more work (but also dedicated maximal strength work almost every day). Then again, I suppose the GB WOD does that.

Apparently CF is good for people who do martial arts or law enforcement, but I'm pretty sure the the general consensus is that strength should be achieved BEFORE beginning CrossFit programming, as you will achieve very little increase in strength once you do begin it.

[Blairbob]

There is a 100 page thread over on PerformanceMenu detailing the known online injury list from CF from the CF forum, mainpage and facebook posts. I think there were over 100 cases of Rhabdo detailed besides countless others, many from stupidity.

There are known reports of many SLAP tears. One of the kipping pullup types, the butterfly kipping pullup can be extremely hard on the shoulders unless done with flawless technique. Of course, the problem is developing that.

Using kipping pullups, one of the biggest instigators of the SLAP and shoulder injuries, is too much volume, especially on the connective tissue over time; especially by many people who have yet or failed to develop any strength in just doing 1-5 strict pullups.

Sumo Deadlifts are not bad by themselves but combined with a High Pull is just dumb. As are medicine ball cleans, the SDHP is just a dumb progression for learning a clean. Doing front squats with PVC doesn't work very well including cleans as well.

Not all the CF WOD are heavy volume olympic lifts as there are some that are maximal attempts 7x1 or 5x3, 7x3. Of course, yes there are 75 power snatches for time with a 75lb snatch.

I still have many friends who Crossfit, some who own/run/coach in affiliates. Honestly, I don't mind doing it on a weekend for a fundraiser or some fun time; but my specific training went nowhere in doing it.

Some of the hybrid CF programs are much better than MainPage CF. You can watch the videos where the CF higher upper staff tries to explain some of their recent programming and it's laughable.

The politics of CF are something else.

CF gyms are pretty neat, a lot of useful stuff. Some are not so stupid about their programming, some are fairly retarded. They all seem to offer a nice community, if you are into that sort of thing.

There is more to add later, but this browser is acting wonky.

[Larry Roseman]

There is a 100 page thread over on PerformanceMenu detailing the known online injury list from CF from the CF forum, mainpage and facebook posts. I think there were over 100 cases of Rhabdo detailed besides countless others, many from stupidity.

Are the injuries more statistically signficent than in other training systems? It may be, though I don't know if there has been a study? Haven't seen one...

The rub to me is that CF training is actually turned into competition. And one of the cornerstones of modern training is that training is *not* competition. It is supposed to be a controlled environment. You put all your training together on game day (or whatever) and perform your best. Instead, every day is game day at CF.

CF training a bit analogous to sparring (rolling) in BJJ. It is important to learn the technique in real world conditions. It is claimed to be safe; however, I found that is when most of my injuries did occur - while sparring - none-the-less.

So I personally wouldn't say it is the movements per se, but the application of them, in that context. Obviously if you yourself can't handle something you should have the common sense to scale it, use bands, replace it with something else, etc, that you can perform safely, though clearly not everyone does

This forum to me probably isn't the best place for this discussion. I'm just starting GB and looking forward to getting into it - not CF. Obviously people who believe in GB will not encourage anyone to go to CF. I must still secretely harbour ambitions to do 50 pull-ups, row 500 meters and do 100 box squats for time!

[Blairbob]

Yes, there isn't nearly as much rhabdo in other training systems and there are a lot of injuries stemming from improper programming and repetitive issues.

[urlhttp] You would have to go through the thread. It's nowhere near the size of the Irongarm one on Mr. Glassman though.

Thrusters technically are kind of a dumb move, but hey they are fun. There isn't a real need for the "American/CF" KB swing.

[Eddie Stelling]

I agree and disagree with some of the stuff written here. First of all, I think the main site is primarily crap. As well as a lot of affliate Crossfit programming; however, some of these guys do a really good job at it. For instance, the crossfit gym I go to is very focused on strength work. Alot of the workouts that my gym owner posts will have 2 parts essentially, a strength portion and a very quick metcon at the end followed by some core work. He also will have just strength (lower and upper body oly lifts) days, dynamic pull/push days, running/rowing workouts....all of which are hit about 1 x week through out 1 wk. Last week there was only 1-2 really gut wrenching metcon workouts out of the 6 days he posted workouts. Some gyms, as well as the main site, will have you doing 2-3 days of the same muscle group over and over with no rest. No good.

So, I do think alot of Crossfit programming is horrible, but not all of it. You also have to remember that just because the main site has a WOD shown does not mean that this is all that "Crossfitters" are doing. Most people that train hard always work strength stuff outside of the WOD. Which is why there is criticism to what you call Crossfit if you are having to do additional work outside of what is prescribed.

Where I disagree with Crossfit, other than poor programming, is the consistent desire to make movements easier to improve time, as slizzardman was saying. This completely boggles my mind! The whole point is to recruit your muscles! But, this also trickles into the topic of Crossfit as a sport. Also, not my favorite thing about it. This efficiency in movements is done because it has become a sport where people are soley competing for the fastest time. Now, like Blairbob was saying, the competitions are very fun and tough, no reason not to enjoy some competition while training. But, if that's what it's evolving to, the Crossfit training should be different! Not focused on how to cheat a movement but focused on building strength, speed, and agility through proper movements. I.E. pullups, I can do more dead hang pullups than most people in my crossfit gym, that's because that's how I train pullups. But when it comes to a workout that requires a lot of pullups for time, I am going to kip and be really fast at it without training it. Catch my drift??

Injuries are definitely alot more frequent, agreed. From, my perspective, I still selectively incorporate my affiliate's crossfit wods into my week, mainly legs. The only time, I can't help myself is really cool workouts that invlove gymnastics. This is because I am a sucker for trash talk! I just have to join in and smoke em! I also like staying lean and the cardio I get from doing a few crossfit workouts a week helps me achieve this. I always put the GB WOD 1st if I have to choose. I also trained very hard with a current Navy SEAL while in college, The Citadel (military college), and I really love hard intense workouts. Crossfit can deliver some good stuff sometimes, this is why I am selective on what I do. If you have never done a hard crossfit workout, you might want to try one before you right it off as stupid. Some are very hard. If programmed correctly (big picture) it can be good, especially for military and law enforcement. I used to follow SEAL fit when I was training to go into the SEALS (never joined) but it will get you in shape my friends, just be smart and dont train like an idiot. Rhabdo should never happen, unless you are being a dumbass. Which happens alot. I recently was challenged that I couldn't do 500 burbees. Well, as I said, I don't take trash talk lightly unfortunately. I hydrated immensly, and rested, and then went for it last week. I did 500 burbees in 31:08 unbroken, never stopped. Now, I would never do this on the regular, and not everyone should try something like this. But, I knew from the stuff I had done at the Citadel, and the volume of training I have built up to that this was a piece of cake. I remained completely hydrated and no rhabdo, becasue I was smart about it. Any training program can have lots of injuries if you have stupid people with big egos. Which is everywhere in the crossfit community.

So sorry about the tangent but to answer your question, I do it to stay lean, and because they can be fun and challenging from time to time. But gymnastics is my main goal, the good stuff!

[Michael Traynor]

I must still secretely harbour ambitions to do 50 pull-ups, row 500 meters and do 100 box squats for time!

But once you have trained the GB way for a while you will be able to do these no problem with a much higher lvl of technical proficiency and therefore less chance of injury,

like you say there are few bad exercises just people doing exercises badly but if you are advocating the use of potentially dangerous exercises, it is your responsibility to ensure that you provide a safe and logical progression to attaining enough skill and often enough maximal and dymnamic strength to avoid injury, this for me is where by design and by atmosphere (everyday being game day, testosterone fueled mayhem) CF falls short.

I don't think there has been studies into percentage of injuries comparing CF to other training methods but I would be very surprised if it wasn't a far greater percentage than most.

[Rafael David]

hey man, make it easier GB > CF

period.

[Asclepius]

Eddie - How is SealFit by the way? I've always thought that that might be the best CrossFit programming I've seen yet (correct me if I'm wrong here and it just looks awesome).