German hang as a prereq for BL

[Leandro]

I've seen people saying you need a 30 second solid german hang before starting to work on BL.

Well, in my case, I don't really know If I can hold a 30s german hang, fully extended. But I'm doing 4x15 for tucked BL and 4x15 for german hang in my FSP warm up.

But I feel the german hang stresses the elbow joint a LOT more than the BL, at least in tucked position. I even prefer to do back lever first so the elbows are more warmed up before doing german hangs.

Is this right or should I really stop BL and stick with german hangs only for now?

I can even hold a full BL with palms down, for 2 seconds.

[Gerald Mangona]

Stick with the German Hangs until your straight arm strength improves. Tuck BL is probably easier than a full German Hang, but you go through the BL progressions, it's your straight arm strength that'll be taxed far more than a German Hang. You can do the German Hang with assistance by making the rings at a level where you can touch floors on your tiptoes. You can then adjust the stress on the tendon by lowering yourself closer to the ground.

And before you do that, you really should make sure you can do a chin-grip hang with straight arms for 60s. When I first saw the chin hang, I thought it was a joke; I'm not a beast, but I can do 8-10 consecutive pull-ups, depending on grip. I figured, "what's the point of this?" Then I did it with straight arms and it was WAY too much for my elbow.

Someone tell me if I'm wrong, because my straight arm strength is even less than that of the original poster, but I believe the purpose of the Chin-Grip Hang ==> German Hang ==> BL progression is to work on conditioning the biceps at the elbow joint.

When the WODs call for BL, I still do them, but I just do them with neutral arm position so there's no stress at the joint. If you're really hung up on wanting to work the BL, do them without straight arms for now. Just make sure you go through all the progressions on the straight arms stuff gradually and carefully. IMHE, the consequences for impatience is a frustrating roller coaster of overuse injuries and tendinitis.

Take your time.

JM

[Leandro]

I apreciate your answer.

But I can't really understand why if a tuck BL is easier than GH in the elbow joint why shouldn't I develop FIRST a tucked BL,then go to a harder exercise like GH, or at least work it together with GH as I'm doing. I'm saying this for the static hold times in the warm up, not the BL into the wods, where you usually hold the best position for a specific time.

That being said, in my specific case, I can actually hold a german hang for 30 seconds, but it's painfull in the elbow. 15 seconds for both GH and tuck BL seem to not hurt me, at least thats my impression.

But I don't want any injury. I'm not sure if I should continue like this.

[Gerald Mangona]

Your logic is right, so I'm not trying to say that you're way off base. And frankly, it probably will work since it's less stress on the elbow then the German Hang. But rather than argue about Tuck BL vs. German Hang or Assisted German Hang, have you given any thought to the chin-grip hang with arms turned out for 60s? If you can do that, you should be ready to go from there to a German Hang.

My understanding is that in the beginning levels of increasing bicep tendon strength, you don't want to do any exercise that you can't hold for 60s pain free. 60s will ensure that you're working at an intensity that's not dangerous to the joint.

You said you could hold the Tuck BL for 15s without pain. The problem with that is that you might be working the tendon at an intensity that will be prone to overuse. Can you hold the chin grip hang for 60s? If not, start with plank leans until you build up that connective tissue.

[Leandro]

I just tried the chin grip, it's just holding the bar as you would do a chin up right? I held for 55 seconds, but it was after the wod so I guess I can hold it for 60 secs when fresh. No elbow pain.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure what exercise is lighter, so I work on it first. But there's also the fact that a GH is a stretch too, not only muscle and tendon strenght like BL, that's why I'm doing both. I think I will stick with tuck BL as it gives me no pain, and add a little assitance in the GH so I feel no pain there too...

[Gerald Mangona]

I just tried the chin grip, it's just holding the bar as you would do a chin up right?

Sort of. It's just like holding the bar as you would do a chin up if you consciously turn out your elbows at the bottom and have a fully locked out arm. In which case, yes. If you can do that, work the plank leans to work on bicep strength. On the floor at first, then on the rings if that's easy. Then move to the German Hang.

You can work on BL if you want, but seriously, be careful. Tendon pain will not show up until after several weeks of overdoing it. And by then you're rehabbing. I'm not an expert. But Coach and all the guys that have gone to his seminars all swear by the same thing. If you're doing them with straight arms, German Hang comes before BL. And if the German Hang is painful, go with an assisted German Hang.

I don't know the logic, but there doesn't seem to be debate about it. And after having lost months of training from tendon overuse, I'm at the point where I just trust them. You don't do an exercise and all of a sudden have an painful moment, and then, BOOM...tendinitis.

What happens is you do an exercise. You feel no pain. You do this for several weeks. And then you start waking up slightly sore, but not really. And then the soreness gradually gets worse, but it doesn't hurt while you're exercising, so you think...no problem. Then tendinitis.

Not trying to be right, or make you wrong...just wish I could have those few months back. That's all. Let us know how it goes!

JM

[Leandro]

Not trying to be right, or make you wrong...just wish I could have those few months back. That's all. Let us know how it goes!

Alright you convinced me. I guess I will stick with german hangs assisted or not, planche leans, and skip BL from the warm up, and only do it in the wods, with neutral grip. I kinda feel a little pain or a weird discomfort in the elbows when doing certain movements, when I'm cold so I guess it's safer to skip it...

[Gerald Mangona]

Ha. Don't thank me. Thank this post...changed the way I looked at the FSPs just in time for me to re-start getting back after injury:

http://gymnastiticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5429&p=47580&hilit=slow#p47578

The FSPs will mostly stenghten your tendons and keep you from injuries if done right.

You should strive to perform the WODs with the prescribed repetitions but in the beginning you'll need to scale them down - for most you scale them down quite a bit

Listen to your body and dont overdo it. Your tendons and ligaments need a lot of time to be strenghtened - dont rush, it will just push you further back.

We get to focus on strengthening all our cool, visible muscles on the WOD. The FSPs seem boring by comparison. But that thing about not rushing tendon strength is legit. I have about 10-degrees of hyperextension in the elbows along with long limbs. The amount of force put on my tricep tendon is very unhealthy unless balanced out with a strong bicep tendon to keep the pressure off the elbow joint.

Might take me a year to get through the plank leans on the floor, then on the rings, chin hang straight arm, then XR support straight arms. And most of those exercises will be boring, with little strain on the muscles we think about most. That's how you know you're working the straight arm progressions at a healthy tempo. Keep us posted! You're ahead of me lol

JM

[Archie Moses]

Good advice in this thread! I have never been injured, but I am constantly reminding myself to check my ego and avoid injury. It's true that the FSPs can get tedious, but in the long run you become a beast, so it is worth it!

I think the reason that BL is less stressful than GH is that in the lever your shoulders and arms and really your entire body are tense, and you are really not pushing any crazy ROM. In the german hang, you just HANG in a seriously extended ROM (at least for people who don't have experience with it) so you are going through a wider ROM and you are not tense to combat the tendon and ligament strain.

Becuase it is more intense on your tendons and ligaments, when you do move onto BL, it is MUCH less likely that you will get hurt. This is just how I see it, I am not an expert. Yet!

Jman - I hear you about the chin hang. I thought it was a joke at first too. I can do 20 chins on a good day, but I had to start my chin hangs at 15 seconds! Everyday is humbling with this stuff! But it is sooooo good!

[Leandro]

I think the reason that BL is less stressful than GH is that in the lever your shoulders and arms and really your entire body are tense, and you are really not pushing any crazy ROM. In the german hang, you just HANG in a seriously extended ROM (at least for people who don't have experience with it) so you are going through a wider ROM and you are not tense to combat the tendon and ligament strain.

That's exactly what I was thinking. And THAT made me wonder why should I first develop a 30s german hang before starting BL. Since you need to work easier things first so your tendons adapt, I'm still a little lost here.

[Guest]

Just my 2 cents (and I may be way off here, but...):

In the German Hang to BL progression, the GH is the tool that allows you to increase shoulder ROM and to prepare the elbow joint for straight-arm work. As pointed out the GH can be performed by using foot assistance so it's perfectly possible to find an assisted GH position that poses less strain on the joints than a tuck BL.

Look at it this way: proficiency in the GH (and preferably also pulling back out of it) allows you to work safely on the other BL progressions because you have already prepared your joints and musculature to be strong in the extreme ends of the ROM. If you would start with the tuck BL instead you will only become strong in that one, limited position.

[Leandro]

In the German Hang to BL progression, the GH is the tool that allows you to increase shoulder ROM and to prepare the elbow joint for straight-arm work. As pointed out the GH can be performed by using foot assistance so it's perfectly possible to find an assisted GH position that poses less strain on the joints than a tuck BL.

Look at it this way: proficiency in the GH (and preferably also pulling back out of it) allows you to work safely on the other BL progressions because you have already prepared your joints and musculature to be strong in the extreme ends of the ROM. If you would start with the tuck BL instead you will only become strong in that one, limited position.

Hum, now I think it makes sense. Let's say you start training assisted GH so they are indeed easier on the elbows than BL tuck. You build 60s with asisstance, then slowly move to 60s unassisted. By then you should be able to start with tuck BL. I guess in that point tuck BL will actually be easy, considering you will have developed a good straight arm strenght.

[Fryk]

Two questions regarding German hangs:

a. It is called a hang, but just how passive is it? If memory serves me right it is not advice-able to hang without tension in a dead-hang (I guess there will be some unwanted tension on the labrum). So shouldn't both the chin up hang and GH have a tension component?

b. Should any german hang (even with feet supporting) be disregarded until 60s full hang is attained?

[Blairbob]

The dead hang, aka chin/pull hang is merely a hang to test grip strength, decompress the spine and loosen up the shoulders. If anything you would want to push your shoulders into your ears which is a critical tip when swinging on bars (so you in effect, pull the bar down more).

[Fryk]

I see. But are there any things to remember in terms of form for the german hang?

[Cole Dano]

Due to the extreme extension of the shoulder joint this is an uncomfortable position especially at first. The shoulders will tense as a protective reflex.

The idea is to gradually work towards a full hang, letting the scapula roll forward and the torso release and slide down.

At first this won't happen any more than a full back lever, its a gradual process and you need to monitor how your shoulders respond every step of the way so as not to overdo it.

[Leandro]

Thanks for all the answers, but I opened the topic to clarify things related to elbows.

You see, as I said, I can hold (not training consistently) a full back lever for 2 seconds, and I was working it in basic tuck, 4x15 seconds. That didn't seem to be heavy on my elbows, it seemed ok. But german hangs are a lot harder. Take the tuesday wod, I held 5x15 german hangs, and my elbows are hurting now...

So, what should I do to not get injured? None of these? Only german hangs, that are harder to my elbows, only tuck BL? Both? Assisted german hangs only???

I feel like I'm going torwards the "injured club", but I really wanted to avoid it.

[Cole Dano]

If your elbows hurt afterwards you are overdoing it. Your options are to not lower as far or to support some of your weight. Find a scaling that works for you and stick with it for 6 weeks, then try to add load and see how it goes.

To build up elbows, you can also work simple support holds, PB first and rings.

In Ido's shoulder sequence there is a the step where the hands are near the hips. I like to work on my elbows here, locking them out and pressing forward against the tension of the bands.

If for some reason your elbows continue to hurt, stop the GH for a while and Google tennis elbow as the treatment is essentially the same.

[Leandro]

Thanks Mr Brady, I will do that!

You know, it's a pain but I have to admit it. I'm one of those persons who has to go through it to learn. I have read a lot of information here about tendon strenght, straight arm work etc, but I simply can't avoid to overdoing things. I guess I'm addicted to exercise. It's hard because I know I'm strong, but I need to hold back some stuff to build tendon strength too...

I just hope this pain in my elbow stop soon. It's friday and it's still here.

[kittyfat101]

Hey, I've had some pain in my elbow too, (not sure from what, probably a combination of different things)... but I've been using these http://ironmind-store.com/Expand-Your-H ... info/1376/ and they've helped a lot. People have said that these help fight tendonitis and other pains, and my tendonitis is going away... so I'm assuming they do to some degree! Wouldn't hurt to check them out you could even use big rubber bands, if you don't wanna buy the actual product.

[Gerald Mangona]

I just hope this pain in my elbow stop soon. It's friday and it's still here.

The pain will stop when you stop doing the exercises that overuse it. I've had two types of elbow tendon inflammation:

(1) where the tricep meets the elbow joint

(2) where the forearm meets the elbow joint.

The first was when I pushed myself too hard on trying to get a muscle-up. I've since stopped trying to do muscle ups and the pain went away. Now I'm just focused on increasing pull-up ROM and strength, dip strength, diamond push-ups for strength where the elbow joint is at its weakest, and the MU transition using my leg strength to assist. GRADUALLY.

The second is from doing too intense of an exercise where my hands support my bodyweight with palms on the floor. Something about the way my wrist is in extension really works my forearm muscles. Once I realized that, I stopped handstand work for 2 weeks. Pain went away, and now even though my arms can support me in HS, I'm doing them with box assistance to lower the intensity and let my tendons catchup. No problems. (Except when I tried doing wall runs, and then re-experienced the same. Been resting 4 days and the pain is gone. When I go back to HS days, wall runs in plank position until I strengthen the forearms)

So first, identify which exercise is giving you the elbow pain. You say it's the German Hang. Is it because your elbows hyperextend? Or is it because you're overworking the bicep tendon? It makes a difference. Either way, maybe your tendons aren't ready for high weight straight arm work. Nothing wrong with just working plank leans for the next 90 days.

You can still do the german hangs and back lever with bent elbows, I'm focusing all my straight arm work on plank leans until the really develop.

Once you figure out the source of the soreness. You can back off those exercises til the pain goes away. Then cut the volume. Cut it by 50-75%. Work your way slowly. Don't worry, you'll still be building plenty of strength with your bent elbow versions and just let your tendons slowly catch up.

For me, I wish my tendons could handle the wall runs...my shoulders can! But who cares...I'm still doing HeSPU and modified wall runs. Still gaining plenty of strength.

GO SLOW.

[Blairbob]

German hang is a definite prerequisite. But you better have a solid support RTO before BL really. You might be able to get away with a tuck but honestly, big deal.

I feel the GH much more in my chest and shoulders than elbows and I have a suspect left elbow. Right now, I'm doing a SSC for 4x15s on RTO support on like 20' foot rings. It's pretty sweet since I work straddle BL for 4x15 and I never have the crippling elbow pain I used to. I probably need to upgrade to 1/2 lay or lay, though but I didn't want to push past 30s straddle BL.

[Leandro]

Thanks people, for all the help. I need a drastic change of mentality or I will be cripled. This episode with my elbows last week made me rethink everything and I almost decided to completely quit BtgB. I started paying more attention to my body. I have A COLLECTION of injuries...

I know it's off topic, just to ilustrate, I have a sprained ankle, level3, not completely healed, I have a knee that makes a weird and scary noise when I squat, as if the bones are touching, I have a pain in the lower back that may be a stress fracture, I'm investigating a pain in the shoulder that doctor thinks it may be slap or rotator cuff injury, and now the elbow....Would you continue training gymnastics with all this?

Some are older than my BtgB training, but they are here now. I admit all of them are my own fault, except for the ankle which was an accident.

I think I need a long time with safe exercises like bike for example, to heal injuries and mind desintoxication.

Coming back to the elbow issue, this is the only injury I haven't seek medical treatment, yet.

JmanDetroit, I know that pain from muscle ups, right at the edge of the triceps. I started having it once and stoped doing them and that kind of pain never came back. One thing I found out to be good for it was doing muscle ups with assistance of elastic.

But what I have now seems more like the number 2, in the forearm muscle near the elbow. I don't know what is a hiperextended elbow, but I see my straight arm and it doesn't reach 180º. My arms are "locked" at maybe 175º. It's been almost 10 days since it started and I've been resting since then. There's pain when I rotate the forearm, more pain if rotation is outside, forcing the rom limit. It goes from the side of the elbow till the back part of it.

I'm not really sure about what to do now. I guess I'm addicted to exercise. I have an awesome unlimited determination and motivation to train, hell I'm 32 and my body beats a lot of 18s around. But I have absolutely no self controll to limit myself. That was not a huge problem when I was lifting weights, but gymnastics is completely diferent in this aspect. Joints get very exposed.

It's very sad you know. You can see in my youtube link, I got a back sommersault with less than 3 months of gymnastic training, after 30. Then I sprained my ankle. Then I decided to wrkout at home while healing. Then i discovered BtgB. Then overuse injuries came. Not blaming BtgB or anything, I think I'm just stupid.

[Gerald Mangona]

But what I have now seems more like the number 2, in the forearm muscle near the elbow

Raise the arm with the injured elbow until it's parallel to the ground (just so we're talking about the same spots on the arm). Extend your fingers so that they're straight out. Dig into the part at the elbow that is most tender with your other hand. Wiggle your fingers. Does that trigger movement on the spot where you are sore and inflammed? If not, what you if you roll into a fist and flex your fist downward toward the floor?

You can be addicted to exercise. I don't think that's it. If that's really the problem, you'd halt training your muscles hard until the tendon strength catches up. I think you are not listening to your body (though it seems as if that were changing.)

GO SLOW.

Thanks for the info on the Muscle-Up. I'm doing a Ring WOD today and I will do 3 transitions using my legs as assistance. Thing is, I know I can do more without feeling pain. But I want to find a pace that doesn't completely flare up my tricep tendon tomorrow a.m. 3 and that's it!

Let us know about the sore spot on the elbow.

[Leandro]

Better show with a video.

hURLl8qgRjA

I have pain on the spots I point, just when doing that kind of movement.

I also did today a lot of elastic exercises, low intensity, high reps, biceps curls, triceps, some of ido's with straigth arms. No pain at all. It's funny because I feel like I could probably do a back lever or german hang and feel no pain.