Hamstrings, Glutes, and Traps

[OliveStrip]

Hey all,

I have a question about a gymnastic/body weight approach to building these muscles groups.

Glutes and Hams

Do any of you feel that bodyweight exercises for the glutes and hams just aren't as effective as barbell squats and deadlifts? I've already got the pistol squat down and have been doing them for some time, yet since I go all the way down on these (curved spine) I know they take the lower back, glutes and hams out of the exercise (right? correct me if I'm wrong this is just what I have heard). Also, because the stance is so narrow, the adductor muscles get very little if no stimulation too correct? I just get this feeling that lower body work with body weight exercises is inferior to barbell work. I would love to hear otherwise. The deadlift and squat hits the quads, glutes, hams, lower back and other muscles as well. Just seems like these movements are so effective as all in one exercises. Also, I understand the need for gymnasts to have small lower bodies, but part of the allure of the GB program is the notion that these exercises carry over very well into other sports and activities. I am not a gymnast but I do love body weight exercises. I am just trying to build a balanced body. Should I just use barbell exercises for the lower body? Any thoughts?

Traps

I was reading this article:

http://startingstrength.com/resources/f ... hp?t=17675

on the starting strength forums and it got me thinking about how one would train the traps with bodyweight exercises. Basically Bill Starr is saying that strong traps are necessary for shoulder health and alignment. Barbell exercises like the overhead press, clean and jerk, and snatch apparently work those areas well. I suppose shrugging while in a handstand would work the traps, but how does the full hand stand pushup (on rings or parallel bars) compare to these barbell exercises?

Thanks a lot. I'd like to hear everyone's opinion.

[Alexander Moreen]

For glutes and hams I would definitely suggest doing some barbell work mixed in with the bodyweight exercises described in the book or this site such as pistols, natural leg curls, and glute ham raises(add these into your routine for sure if you don't do them), But in particular for pistols, don't curve your back, keep it straight as you go down and push up by flexing your glutes and hams and not your quads. You should get a much better bang for your buck like that.

For traps you can do inverted hang shrugs, or inverted pullups which will both help balance your shoulder if you dont do them currently. And again I would definitely recommend some barbell work such as shrugs, especially if you do much dipping. However your handstand should already have your traps contracted all the time anyways, always extend your shoulders.

[Nick]

Regarding pistols, yes they tend to be more quad dominant, but if you're proficient at them, you can focus on using your glutes/hams to complete the movement. But the same thing can be said for barbell squats obviously. Regardless of the exercise, you can voluntarily alter muscular recruitment to target what you need (to a certain extent, of course). As far as the adductors, it's important that they stay in balance with the abductors and a single leg squat would probably be about the best thing in the world for that.

If you want to use bodyweight only, you could throw in some natural ghrs and king deadlifts for your glutes/hams. Personally I see no reason not to use both bodyweight and free weights... there's advantages to both and they complement each other well.

[AlexX]

I take leg training very seriously as someone who is working towards his goals of a 40 yard dash and dunking a basketball (I am 5"8). I would say that you are highly mistaken in thinking that squats train the hamstrings and glutes to a high degree. People will probably get all up in arms for this statement but I'd have to say that the deadlift unless done with great form (most don't) becomes more of a back exercise than a hamstring one. The typical powerlifter's deadlift is quite a bit more back than hamstrings. This is because powerlifter will round the upper back to decrease the range of motion.

So back to training hamstring and glutes - Read Brett Contreras stuff on t-nation.com this guys knows his glute training and the number one exercise for glutes (tested with EKG equipment) is the hip thrust and its variations then there were single leg variations then the sumo deadlift (straight upper back and lower starting position) then Romanian deadlift then regular deadlift and last the squat.

The hamstrings - My personal experience is that I the natural leg curl and Coach's half glute ham raise variation are supreme in hamstring training and I've done RDLs with over 315 for reps with good form. The 315 rdl isn't impressive by any means but I had better results from doing the natural leg curl with no weight. Probably a mix of these exercises is best for hamstring growth. I think the reason I personally had such a bad experience with the RDLs is that it always made me sore no matter how long I did them for. Great news for a bodybuilder I suppose but not for a person that has to do sprinting or jumping training the next day.

If your goal is to train the hamstring and glutes, I would say that you are mistaken in thinking that the squat and deadlift are supreme here (and the deadlift has been my favorite exercise since I started training). I would say the best glute and hamstring exercises are the hipthrust and variations, natural leg curl and/or romanian deadlift.

[OliveStrip]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I appreciate them.

[Coach Sommer]

(For) the traps, ... how does the full hand stand pushup (on rings or parallel bars) compare to these barbell exercises? ...

Shrugging elements are fine as a secondary or finishing element; however Press HS work, especially from an L-sit or straddle L, is far superior for overall trapezius development.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Nic Scheelings]

I've always felt pistols work my glutes well, in my opinion better than most exercises.

As for traps, pommel work as well is fantastic for trap development.

[AlexX]

My traps have doubled in size since I began handstand press work and I cant press from an L with a pike yet. Also before handstand press work the handstand wall-runs that Coach recommends left my traps feeling significantly worked.

[Aushion Chatman]

Beyond pistols I find the Shrimp variations as detailed by Ido

to be very challenging glute/ham exercises.

I agree with the person who mentioned the hip thruster...it's a butt buster.

[Joshua Naterman]

I take leg training very seriously as someone who is working towards his goals of a 40 yard dash and dunking a basketball (I am 5"8). I would say that you are highly mistaken in thinking that squats train the hamstrings and glutes to a high degree. People will probably get all up in arms for this statement but I'd have to say that the deadlift unless done with great form (most don't) becomes more of a back exercise than a hamstring one. The typical powerlifter's deadlift is quite a bit more back than hamstrings. This is because powerlifter will round the upper back to decrease the range of motion.

So back to training hamstring and glutes - Read Brett Contreras stuff on t-nation.com this guys knows his glute training and the number one exercise for glutes (tested with EKG equipment) is the hip thrust and its variations then there were single leg variations then the sumo deadlift (straight upper back and lower starting position) then Romanian deadlift then regular deadlift and last the squat.

The hamstrings - My personal experience is that I the natural leg curl and Coach's half glute ham raise variation are supreme in hamstring training and I've done RDLs with over 315 for reps with good form. The 315 rdl isn't impressive by any means but I had better results from doing the natural leg curl with no weight. Probably a mix of these exercises is best for hamstring growth. I think the reason I personally had such a bad experience with the RDLs is that it always made me sore no matter how long I did them for. Great news for a bodybuilder I suppose but not for a person that has to do sprinting or jumping training the next day.

If your goal is to train the hamstring and glutes, I would say that you are mistaken in thinking that the squat and deadlift are supreme here (and the deadlift has been my favorite exercise since I started training). I would say the best glute and hamstring exercises are the hipthrust and variations, natural leg curl and/or romanian deadlift.

You are so right about the NLC and half GHR... These together with the HeS RLL have made me even stronger than I was before, and I was pretty strong. I tested myself on a back extension bench with a 45 degree angle and repping 225 (five 45 lb plates stacked) was a joke. Before I started GB my best was maybe 10 reps with 175, and that was feeling a little crazy on my hamstring attachments. I didn't even FEEL the 225. I was very surprised. I did 5 easy reps and then ran to my next class.

I got great results with the deadlifting as far as size gains in the hamstrings and glutes went, but then I was also concentrating on perfect form for RDL and regular DL. Straight back the whole way. I actually think that the sled sprinting is outstanding for this as well. An excellent dynamic element to help enhance and utilize what we build with the NLC and GHR work.

I am going to start doing some barbell hip thrusts pretty soon, I know they will enhance my broad jumping ability. Not much, but finishing the maximal and/or dynamic leg days with something like that seems like a good idea. I am also slowly working on my full clean form so that hopefully in a few months I'll be ready to start cleaning reasonable loads in my warm ups.

[Mikko Myllymäki]

Sorry for interrupting but what is a natural leg curl? Couldn't find it anywhere.

[Nicholas Sortino]

Sorry for interrupting but what is a natural leg curl? Couldn't find it anywhere.

It's in the book. P.165

[Erik Sjolin]

(For) the traps, ... how does the full hand stand pushup (on rings or parallel bars) compare to these barbell exercises? ...

Shrugging elements are fine as a secondary or finishing element; however Press HS work, especially from an L-sit or straddle L, is far superior for overall trapezius development.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

As far as the presses go, should a standng pike press be developed before trying it from a (straddle) L? I've been messing around with straight arm presses in a tuck, but not really sure where to go from there...it really is great for traps though!

[Razz]

Erik I'd say presses go something like this:

1: standing straddle

2: l-sit press to straddle stand

3: l-sit press open up and straddle press HS

4: standing pike press

5: straddle-l press HS

6: l-sit pike press HS

[Mikko Myllymäki]

It's in the book. P.165

*Facepalm*

[OliveStrip]

I've always felt pistols work my glutes well, in my opinion better than most exercises.

Really? This hasn't been my experience at all. I feel that my glutes have gotten weaker since I made the switch from barbell back squats to bw pistols.

[Joshua Naterman]

It depends on how you do them, but BB back squats are a good strength move. Just make sure you do them fast if you are a non-powerlifter or non-bodybuilder athlete.