unkow elbow pain

[Alessandro Mainente]

at the end of a circles training on the pommel i hear a little pain in the inner part the elbow...in the internal part...now i feel pain when i'm doing handstand or planche...or everywork where the elbows must be locked...

i don't now if the cause can be that on the pommel i have everytime the lebows locked and i slam them on the pommel? is the first time that this thing happens to me...and i don't know what i have to do...on the web i found no one help !!!!

thanks for who answer

[Joshua Naterman]

It could be that you've been doing way too much to your biceps tendon. It sounds like you need a little bit of a layoff where you just do some basic fitness stuff, and also prehab. Then take some time and slow down with the iron cross progression. If you take your layoff now you can save yourself months of recovery! You don't have to stop training, just tone it down and go slower when you start getting back into your routine!

[Alessandro Mainente]

thank you slizz...the strange thing is that i stopped train iron cross for the last week because i was to much tired cause the work and i prefer to don't put to much stress on my physics...i don't think is a good thing train if my elbows can cause some pain or not?

simply i have to scale my workout?

[Joshua Naterman]

Taking a complete rest really depends on how bad your elbows are, but even if they are pretty bad you can still do legs and core, you know? Jumping and all that too. You really need to scale your workouts so that your elbows don't hurt during them, and then plan out a slow and steady progression to getting back where you were. Take some time and look at how much work you were doing with the straight arms and see if it looks like a bit much. I think your weight increases on the assisted cross were being added on a bit too quickly, and that may have been the start of it.

I know that from Coach's standpoint he would prefer to see you master the XR HS and XR planche before you tackle IC, but even if you are going to keep training for it I think that just slowing down will help a lot. reducing assistance every 2-3 months or so by a few kg instead of more frequently may end up working out a lot better for you once you're back in it. Are you keeping your triceps strong? Are you doing enough high rep bicep work to keep the tendon healed? If you're doing mostly strength work you may find you get better results when you split your work more evenly between higher reps and lower reps.

[Alessandro Mainente]

my triceps are very strong...i think more more than my biceps...

i want to decrease the aid more slow and in that time mastering hs and planche on rings...i think is better and you think is better and coach sommer thinks is better...

so do you think that is possible training with workout based on the push-up also with core?

the pain...is not unbearable...is more a little litlle trouble...during the day i don't feel pain and i can do everything

[Joshua Naterman]

Be careful, right now since you can feel it the injury is already starting to get bad. I think concentrating on the ring handstand and planche is probably a good idea, just go slow for now. You've got to let those elbows heal, so I think you need to find out what you can do without causing pain. I'm sure some easier planche holds for a little less time than you normally do won't be bad, and if nothing else you can adjust planche leans so that they don't bother you. In the meantime, higher rep bicep work will help heal you and to maintain strength you can always see how you feel with weighted dips and tuck planche push ups (not coming all the way up to straight arm for now) and maybe weighted pull ups, but probably right now you'll heal faster from higher rep pull ups. Don't worry, you won't really lose any strength. It takes a month of total time off to even start losing strength, so if you just scale back a bit so that you don't keep making the elbows worse you'll keep your strength at the very least.

Gregor believes that having super strong biceps goes a long way towards protecting the elbow, so that may be something to work for. Coach has mentioned that muscle seems to help protect the tendons from injury. I don't know that THAT is biologically correct, but it does seem like building up that muscle helps. I think the relatively lower forces on the tendon just help the tendon heal during the bicep curls and things like that, and I think the blood flow during those exercises helps a lot too.

[Neal Winkler]

Slizzard,

If I''m doing the WOD, what would be good a day to add in some dumbbell/barbell bicep curls? My old BJJ elbow injury occurred over a year and half ago and it still isn't right to this day. Also, I feel that my following the philosophy of "isolation sucks" has led me to having arms that are a little too small for my torso size (chest/lats are over developed relative to bi's/tri's/forarms). I wonder if this might be holding me back on progress in this system?

[Joshua Naterman]

It really could be. I do one set every workout day, and it's never a maximal set. If you want or need to do a little more, I'd suggest doing one set before every workout and one set after bicep tendon intensive workouts like ring strength and maximal pressing. Make sure you're doing higher rep sets, like 15-20 reps. They are pre-hab, not conditioning. Kind of like at our current strength levels the FSP are more like skill work than strength work. The only difference is that these bicep curls should always stay pre-hab. Over time you'll add weight, but that doesn't really matter. The main benefit comes from the movement and blood flow.

Make sure you get your arms some deep tissue therapy, whether it is professional or home-brewed! If you find a good practitioner you will soon find out that your muscles have a lot of adhesions to be worked out, and it is very hard to get the deeper stuff at home.

[Neal Winkler]

Cool, do you also do triceps? Contreras' emg studies show that the rope and cable extensions are the best triceps isolation exercise, with the barbell curls topping for biceps.

[Joshua Naterman]

I have been very careful to limit my pressing to dips lately, because I'm still getting my shoulders back into balance. It is going well, and some drills I learned at this last seminar are really going to enhance things. Starting later this fall or early winter I WILL start doing tricep work in my warm up, but I will be doing tricep push ups. I had very, very good improvement when I did those. That's what helped condition my elbows for muscle ups. I will be transitioning to one arm tricep push ups next year, using my weight assistance set-up to make it happen! I don't expect to be able to do one without an assist for two years or so, but that'll be a fun little teaser! I have yet to see one in any video.

I am starting to believe very strongly that all this prehab and joint balancing is the single most productive part of any fitness program. I really think that this is where true strength comes from. We shall see. I think I'm going to make a few people need to wear brown pants at the next seminar.

[Tarun Suri]

Closest I've ever seen was from the guy from Beastskills.

[Alessandro Mainente]

thank you very much, for me the problem is only the elbows locked now...

i know that for example strong shoulders and chest can prevent the injury of the shoulder's tendon (i heard it from my professor of human physiology at university)...maybe i could apply this thing to the biceps...

for strong bicep what type of exercise i can do? lately i found that from back lever i do a body curl to go to support...and i hear the biceps work very well....but now is not possible for me perform a back lever...

what i can do? and how many reps? with how much weight?

thank Slizz you're too patient

[Joshua Naterman]

Wow, you're a beast. I found that I am close to being able to do that lol! Not there yet though... I sort of did it on accident when trying to learn a backward roll on rings at the seminar, but my right shoulder rolled the wrong way and I didn't have the strength in that position.

Anyways! Seriously, I think that chin ups and high rep bicep curls are going to be your friends for a while, I'd probably do sets of 15 reps. That's how I rehabbed my biceps a while ago, and I used whatever weight didn't hurt on the 15th rep. Obviously there's going to be some burning from the higher reps at least at first, but there should be no tingling or anything in the tendon, during OR after the set. I think that's going to determine your weight. I actually don't think you're going to need to go up in weight for 8-12 weeks, because you should really just let that tendon heal. You may feel ok in straight arm in a month, but only do really, really easy stuff then if you decide to get back into the straight arm work that soon. That's basically what I'm doing. I can work WAY harder than I am, but I know my elbows are still pretty vulnerable so I am being careful.

When you get stronger(or more healed I should say), you can also do BW bicep curls. Start in a body row position(like in a FL but feet on the ground or a bench) hanging from the rings. Now, using a biceps curl motion touch your knuckles to your forehead. You're going to find out that this is ridiculously hard, and my favorite thing about this exercise is that it is actually HARDEST at the top of the curl! Everything else gets easier as your arm bends, even OAC, but not this one. You'll have to be careful about body angle, small adjustments change the resistance quite a bit!

I did get this one from Paul Zaichik. It's one of the relatively small number of things he does that I actually think is great.

[Alessandro Mainente]

oh my god now i want ot try this exercise...you should not tell me...now how i can resist to the temptation?

yesterday i did a core/ push training session and i didn't have any problem...i can do front lever without problems so i focuse myself on it...

when i did from the back lever the body curl i did it not with the body completely in air...(suppose a full back lever position) but with my feet in an elevated position about 20-30 cm more than the head and the feet on a wooden plank...

if your biceps are strong is not so difficult for the biceps but maintain the false grip require a great strength and shoulder flexibility...fortunately the flexibility is not a problem...

while we are talking i ask you an opinion...about 4 years ago i've broken my LCA and after alone and with a great patience i've got the full ROM of the leg...now i'm doing the PNF isometrich stretching....is not a problem from my LCA?!

and for the chin up and curl i have to bring mu muscles at the incapacity at the end of a series? and is better do this everydays or 2-3 time a week?

I am learning many important things from you!!!!!!!!! thanks

[Rafael David]

It really could be. I do one set every workout day, and it's never a maximal set. If you want or need to do a little more, I'd suggest doing one set before every workout and one set after bicep tendon intensive workouts like ring strength and maximal pressing. Make sure you're doing higher rep sets, like 15-20 reps. They are pre-hab, not conditioning. Kind of like at our current strength levels the FSP are more like skill work than strength work. The only difference is that these bicep curls should always stay pre-hab. Over time you'll add weight, but that doesn't really matter. The main benefit comes from the movement and blood flow.

Make sure you get your arms some deep tissue therapy, whether it is professional or home-brewed! If you find a good practitioner you will soon find out that your muscles have a lot of adhesions to be worked out, and it is very hard to get the deeper stuff at home.

this is only for those who want to retrieve the tendon? I want to prevent, what do I do? I do biceps curls at the beginning or end of training? how many reps / sets? or should I follow that protocol too?

[Joshua Naterman]

Same thing, in my experience. Start light and increase once a week or so. The only difference between rehab and prehab is whether you start before or after you feel an injury!

Don't go to failure on those sets! You WILL feel a burn, and that will require some mental toughness to endure, but there should be no injury pain, just the burn from lactic acid. You should easily have the ability to do more reps, but you won't need to . 15-20 is plenty. Once you can do that, stick with it for a week or two and then move the weight up a little bit. I'd stick with the same weight until you can do 20 reps. I think that the best way to know if you are going too heavy is by determining whether you are compromising your strength work out. This should be like a tough warm up but not a strength element. At first it might not even be tough, I don't know. That depends on how well conditioned you are for this type of work. For me, biceps curls with 20 lb dumbbells are quite tough to do 20 slow reps with, and I can curl 80 lb db at least. That's part of how I know I am in such dire need of this! You have to figure that you should be able to do 20 reps with 60% of your max, but doing them slowly with 30-40% instead will ensure you don't cause any of your intermediate fibers to start converting over to endurance instead of strength. You will STILL get all the benefits of lactic acid, faster healing and more blood vessels being built in the muscle, which will make all of your strength work more effective. This can, and perhaps should, be done with every muscle group, or at least the ones that are the most vital to any given sport.

I need to ask my friend Andrew about the leg question, he is more knowledgeable about that than I am.

[Alessandro Mainente]

thank you slizz for your tips....my bicep tendon is completely healed....i have not stopped working out....and with pl leans...and a lots lots lots of biceps curls and chin up...i have not lost my strength...on the contrary, seems that a little pause from some skill's training has increased my strength (for example for the front lever...now with on leg a little bit bent and the other fully extended i can hold it for 20-25 seconds...)

it is obvius that i come back into my routine gradually...i don't feel pain with full back lever or planche or handstand but i prefer to do the flat tuck bl for non-stress to much my bicep tendon...

so in one side an injury is a great thing in order to reflect on my limits, on what did i do wrong and learn something very useful from you....and in the end is a great reason to master another skill...i my case press handstand on the rings...not with the arms completely looked but...it think is not bad what i can do now!!!

thank you slizz

[Joshua Naterman]

You are welcome! I am glad you are feeling better!