Training like a bodybuilder with gymnastic exercises

[Deft-Mastery]

I tried the bicep curls with the rings several times today and I gotta say, it feels friking weird. This thing will wreck your hands in no time, already I have like 3 calluses on my base knuckles.

The other thing was that, since your hands are moving a lot both on the ascent and on the descent of the exercise, I didn't like the feeling that I couldn't like lock and press as hard as I could because of this, I felt like I had to constantly adjust my hands.

Maybe I did it wrong, I don't know. The other thing I tried was placing my hands close to how they are when you go all the way up with the exercise, but this didn't let me straighten my arms at the bottom obviously.

Is there anything you could do to not wreck your hands while doing this?

[Joshua Naterman]

You could use fuzzy gloves! Seriously!

Being able to maintain a strong false grip helps too, but that can get tiring. Probably a great way to work on the false grip though!

[Deft-Mastery]

It is vitally, vitally important that you do scapular retraction specifically as a GVT exercise if you choose to do this.

How would this be?

[Deft-Mastery]

You could use fuzzy gloves! Seriously!

You mean like these?

Or like these:

[Jonas Jonzen]

Your hands will toughen up with time.

I think the biceps curls works great. And I feel it is also good for wrist strengthening.

Post a video if you are unsure of the movement, there are lots of good people to help Im sure.

[Deft-Mastery]

Your hands will toughen up with time.

I'm sure they will. But they won't be any good to for example touch a lady...

I'll have to post a video then, there's another way I was doing them which I want to know if it's still ok, but I don't know how to explain it that well with words hence...

[Joshua Naterman]

I think I have to go with the purple.

[Deft-Mastery]

I think those are snow ones, or the ones they use to shower.

[Joshua Naterman]

Definitely show me your idea! This is one exercise where you may want to make a custom attachment for the rings, just a simple rope tied onto the rings with a 5-6" piece of 3/4" PVC on the rope. The PVC will rotate on the rope and eliminate your hand problem without having to resort to extreme ends of the rainbow.

[Deft-Mastery]

Sure, but I'll have to do it like in 2-3 days because I was sick yesterday, still am, but I don't have a fever anymore and right now I don't even want to try anything, I feel beat up haha.

[Joshua Naterman]

Yea, take care of yourself and wait until you feel better!

[Guest]

Count me in the GVT team guys. I've done the WODs for a couple of months before leaving on vacation in September and I was very pleased with the results in terms of strength. But 1) I would really love to put on some weight (I'm 1.80 m/5'11" and 67 kg/140(?) lbs; my BF is around 6 or 7% I think) and 2) my life is quite hectic at the moment so my brain is in need of a straightforward workout which I can do for the next couple of months without having to think too much about the specifics.

So I want to give the GVT program as outlined by The Slizz a go. I hope you are willing to guide us through the intermediate and advanced stages as well, Josh. After that, I will definitely get back into the WODs because I love them.

[Joshua Naterman]

Absolutely. Depending on your recovery ability, I think that you will still be ok for some strength work as well, or at least 1-2 scaled WOD rounds, just so you don't miss out on the fun. That might actually be a great warm up for the GVT, because you'll stimulate your nervous system and you'll maintain every ability you have worked hard to build.

[Jonas Jonzen]

I posted a new topic in the training log section regarding GVT work.

[Deft-Mastery]

Hey slizzardman,

I hate to even bring this up but, tomorrow I will finally start working out again (I'll see what I do so that I only workout M, T, Th and F and not on weekends) and I just wanted to clarify something again:

Like I said before I won't be doing the WOD's yet, so as far as the FSP's go, the fastest (and "safest") way to reach the final position will be just doing 1 minute of each for every day that you do them? Adding 2, 3 or 4 minutes won't make you get there faster?

I don't think I will be starting from scratch with the times but it will be less of course.

[Joshua Naterman]

More time will not add significant results right now, and if you are doing things right it never really will. There are some very specific situations in which some extra time is a good idea, but that is fairly rare. I used to think that could be more of a common practice but knowing what I know now I have changed my opinion. Lack of progress is pretty much ALWAYS due to a lack of prerequisite abilities. People find this out very quickly at the seminars.

The truth is that right now you won't be able to fully benefit from ALL of the statics, because I am willing to put all my money on the fact that, just like pretty much everyone here who hasn't already built this up specifically, you can't complete all of the pre-requisite work for L sit, FL, possibly BL, and most certainly planche. The right way to go through these is radically different than just starting with the first progression. This is covered more fully in the 2nd edition of the book, so for now even though it is not ideal you really should do the statics that are in the book. The beginning steps in the progressions are posted here, so you could always find those and start there if you want to.

Whatever you do, keep it at 4 days per week. The rest days are when the magic happens.

[Deft-Mastery]

More time will not add significant results right now, and if you are doing things right it never really will. There are some very specific situations in which some extra time is a good idea, but that is fairly rare. I used to think that could be more of a common practice but knowing what I know now I have changed my opinion. Lack of progress is pretty much ALWAYS due to a lack of prerequisite abilities. People find this out very quickly at the seminars.

The truth is that right now you won't be able to fully benefit from ALL of the statics, because I am willing to put all my money on the fact that, just like pretty much everyone here who hasn't already built this up specifically, you can't complete all of the pre-requisite work for L sit, FL, possibly BL, and most certainly planche. The right way to go through these is radically different than just starting with the first progression. This is covered more fully in the 2nd edition of the book, so for now even though it is not ideal you really should do the statics that are in the book. The beginning steps in the progressions are posted here, so you could always find those and start there if you want to.

Whatever you do, keep it at 4 days per week. The rest days are when the magic happens.

I'm very confused now.

So in a sense, the book is worthless. It's supposed to be for the "fitness enthusiasts" too, for non-gymnasts. The FSP's are given there and the way to do them is also given too. But now you say that following the book won't even get you there. You say there are some prerequisites and stuff that you need to do that the book doesn't give.

So what's the deal here?

[Aleister Ruffer]

A little confused - could use some clarity on the GVT:

Notes: Rest 90 seconds between each “A†exercise and each superset; rest 60 seconds between each “B†exercise and each superset. Incidentally, I recommend only 3 sets of 10 in this program for the “B†exercises. The “B†exercises constitute supplementary work, and doing 10 sets of them would result in overtraining.

Chest & Back

so:

A1) XR PPP

A2) XR Bulgarian Row

B1) XR Dips

B2) XR Foot Supported Row

Is it perform A1, rest 90 sec, perform A2?

or:

Perform A1, perform A2, then rest 90 sec?

Going to try a cycle of this and see what happens

[Joshua Naterman]

More time will not add significant results right now, and if you are doing things right it never really will. There are some very specific situations in which some extra time is a good idea, but that is fairly rare. I used to think that could be more of a common practice but knowing what I know now I have changed my opinion. Lack of progress is pretty much ALWAYS due to a lack of prerequisite abilities. People find this out very quickly at the seminars.

The truth is that right now you won't be able to fully benefit from ALL of the statics, because I am willing to put all my money on the fact that, just like pretty much everyone here who hasn't already built this up specifically, you can't complete all of the pre-requisite work for L sit, FL, possibly BL, and most certainly planche. The right way to go through these is radically different than just starting with the first progression. This is covered more fully in the 2nd edition of the book, so for now even though it is not ideal you really should do the statics that are in the book. The beginning steps in the progressions are posted here, so you could always find those and start there if you want to.

Whatever you do, keep it at 4 days per week. The rest days are when the magic happens.

I'm very confused now.

So in a sense, the book is worthless. It's supposed to be for the "fitness enthusiasts" too, for non-gymnasts. The FSP's are given there and the way to do them is also given too. But now you say that following the book won't even get you there. You say there are some prerequisites and stuff that you need to do that the book doesn't give.

So what's the deal here?

Confusion is understandable. That's part of why so much work is being put into a 2nd edition!

The progressions shown are absolutely how you progress through the movement, and they certainly work, but as one small example you will notice that people here, in general, make very slow FL progress. Much slower than I think they should be, for the most part, though I can be biased since it is fairly easy for me. Anyhow, my point is that before you are actually doing FL work there are a few things you are supposed to be able to do first. One of which is a 60s hollow hold with arms extended on the floor, body essentially flat. This is not the same as a 6" hold, your lower back must be the only thing touching the floor. If someone can slide a card under your back you're doing it wrong. The hips should be tucked in, etc. Without developing that skill/strength first, you will not have the muscular development or neural learning required to hold a lever position. Then there are about 8-9 other steps along the way before you should be trying actual FL sets. Now, I didn't realize this at the time because I didn't know until I went to the seminars, but part of why it only took me 4 months to get a full FL was that I could already do everything that was on that particular progression list! I have lost some of that ability during my recovery from my planche elbow issues and now I am building it back. As I build that back up I notice that my FL is coming back as well, even though I have not been quite as diligent about static holds as I usually am.

That is why I am saying that right now a ton of static volume isn't going to help you much. Your time should be spent developing some basic strength. A minute a day per hold is fine, and will certainly help more than not doing anything, but concentrate your energy into German hang until you have a very easy 3x30s and 60s L sit (starting with whatever progression you can hold a PERFECT 20s in. This may be tuck, and if it is that's 100% ok. Personally I believe in starting with the tuck anyways because to me it seems like I use more internal core muscles in that position than I am in the low straight leg position) before you worry about planche or back lever at all. Those are part of the 'preferred' progressions.

The reason that Coach didn't put the there is basically that he literally did not realize that we didn't know about that. Try to remember that he's been in gymnastics and coaching gymnasts for EVER, and that was just assumed to be such common knowledge that it slipped his mind. Not the perfect situation, but the book is still excellent. I have benefited from it tremendously and I know that everyone else here has too. It is unfortunate that this has happened, but here we are. Be happy with what we have at the moment.

I'll tell you this, weighted pull ups and weighted dips with FULL ROM are what developed my upper body ability to what it is, and that plus straight body strength from body levers (which I had done for years before coming here) is what allowed me to get to full lay so quickly. So during your static development time in the warm up, a few sets of pull ups will be a good idea, and so will 1-2 sets of dips. Obviously not to failure. 5-6 reps is plenty, but make them as full ROM as you can. When you get to where you're doing easy reps with 1s up and 1-2s down tempo for 8-10 reps add 5 lbs. Use the different dips shown in the book and use the various pull up grips and body positions. Do the L sit work, and work the hollow hold. You may want to throw in some wall handstand work in small doses as well. HS is pretty important.

[Joshua Naterman]

A little confused - could use some clarity on the GVT:

Notes: Rest 90 seconds between each “A†exercise and each superset; rest 60 seconds between each “B†exercise and each superset. Incidentally, I recommend only 3 sets of 10 in this program for the “B†exercises. The “B†exercises constitute supplementary work, and doing 10 sets of them would result in overtraining.

Chest & Back

so:

A1) XR PPP

A2) XR Bulgarian Row

B1) XR Dips

B2) XR Foot Supported Row

Is it perform A1, rest 90 sec, perform A2?

or:

Perform A1, perform A2, then rest 90 sec?

Going to try a cycle of this and see what happens

You'll get buff lol!!!

Ok seriously! So for A1 and A2 you would really only need a little bit of rest if any. I don't take any, personally. However, A1, 20s, A2, 60s, repeat 9 times would be ok. Keep in mind that pretty much everything used in A1 is resting while you're doing A2, and each set should be taking right around 50-60s. 10 reps x 5-6s per rep = 50-60s. That's a large part of your 10s rest.

I am going to suggest that you either set the rings to the height you use on the bulgarian rows (which will be VERY high) and perform FX PPP *OR* use truck straps from home depot and a piece of PVC pipe on each as a handle to make a lower set of handles that can hang off the rings at the correct height for you to perform PPP. You will waste a lot of time adjusting your rings with that superset. Unless you are a super beast, FX PPP are going to kick your @$$ in a GVT format. Believe it or not even REGULAR push ups might for a while. The tempo changes everything.

The more rest you take the less lactate you will build up, and building up a ton of lactate is a critical part of how GVT works. Keep 60s between sets of the same exercise as a maximum rest time if possible. I think you're nuts to try and drop below 30s, just try 60s rest at first and see what happens.

[Deft-Mastery]

Confusion is understandable. That's part of why so much work is being put into a 2nd edition!

Ok I get it. Sorry for saying the book was worthless, obviously that's not true. That came out wrong and I was just referring to the statics, which is just a portion of the book. What I meant to say was that I was a little upset that these kind of details weren't in the book so I see it as a little misguiding to have a book tell you "ok this is what you will do to do this" but then find out later that you actually needed something else to actually get there and the book didn't provide it.

One of which is a 60s hollow hold with arms extended on the floor, body essentially flat. This is not the same as a 6" hold, your lower back must be the only thing touching the floor. If someone can slide a card under your back you're doing it wrong. The hips should be tucked in, etc.

I don't get this. How is this done?

Then there are about 8-9 other steps along the way before you should be trying actual FL sets. Now, I didn't realize this at the time because I didn't know until I went to the seminars, but part of why it only took me 4 months to get a full FL was that I could already do everything that was on that particular progression list!

What exactly are these 8-9 things?

That is why I am saying that right now a ton of static volume isn't going to help you much. Your time should be spent developing some basic strength. A minute a day per hold is fine, and will certainly help more than not doing anything, but concentrate your energy into German hang until you have a very easy 3x30s and 60s L sit (starting with whatever progression you can hold a PERFECT 20s in. This may be tuck, and if it is that's 100% ok. Personally I believe in starting with the tuck anyways because to me it seems like I use more internal core muscles in that position than I am in the low straight leg position) before you worry about planche or back lever at all. Those are part of the 'preferred' progressions.

I'd just like to be able to do the statics and reach the final position as fast as safely possible, and right now they will obviously not be part of my main workout or something like that, like you advised. The statics are something I'd just like to be able to do as an "aside" or "bonus" lol. Well not really, the strength and the other things they provide are obvious attractions to me.

I'll tell you this, weighted pull ups and weighted dips with FULL ROM are what developed my upper body ability to what it is, and that plus straight body strength from body levers (which I had done for years before coming here) is what allowed me to get to full lay so quickly. So during your static development time in the warm up, a few sets of pull ups will be a good idea, and so will 1-2 sets of dips. Obviously not to failure. 5-6 reps is plenty, but make them as full ROM as you can. When you get to where you're doing easy reps with 1s up and 1-2s down tempo for 8-10 reps add 5 lbs. Use the different dips shown in the book and use the various pull up grips and body positions. Do the L sit work, and work the hollow hold. You may want to throw in some wall handstand work in small doses as well. HS is pretty important.

For sure. Right now I'll have to climb back again though because today I tested some and I felt very weak and even shaky. The added weight will have to come a bit later it seems.

I thought I was going to workout today but I had to go out like 5 hours, plus the PB that I just made shake a lot when you're on top of them so this needs to get fixed before I use them because like I said, right now I'm weak and this probably doesn't let me control them. Or maybe they shake to anyone.

[Deft-Mastery]

You'll get buff lol!!!

Ok seriously! So for A1 and A2 you would really only need a little bit of rest if any. I don't take any, personally. However, A1, 20s, A2, 60s, repeat 9 times would be ok. Keep in mind that pretty much everything used in A1 is resting while you're doing A2, and each set should be taking right around 50-60s. 10 reps x 5-6s per rep = 50-60s. That's a large part of your 10s rest.

I am going to suggest that you either set the rings to the height you use on the bulgarian rows (which will be VERY high) and perform FX PPP *OR* use truck straps from home depot and a piece of PVC pipe on each as a handle to make a lower set of handles that can hang off the rings at the correct height for you to perform PPP. You will waste a lot of time adjusting your rings with that superset. Unless you are a super beast, FX PPP are going to kick your @$$ in a GVT format. Believe it or not even REGULAR push ups might for a while. The tempo changes everything.

The more rest you take the less lactate you will build up, and building up a ton of lactate is a critical part of how GVT works. Keep 60s between sets of the same exercise as a maximum rest time if possible. I think you're nuts to try and drop below 30s, just try 60s rest at first and see what happens.

Isn't it impossible to start out doing GVT with PPP? Well, at least for us relative rookies. And wouldn't it be dangerous to do so much volume with it, because of all the things you've said about it?

I thought you said you're better off not doing the exercises in supersets...

[Joshua Naterman]

I personally don't like the supersets for the most part because my equipment is not set up for me to do too many ideal supersets. I do not think they are the best way to start out simply because it is a VERY heavy workload in a very short period of time. However, it would not be wrong to do so. Supersets will intrinsically have longer rest times, and for my purposes at the moment that is not ideal for my goals. I want absolute maximum lactate. It really burns incredibly badly, but it also gives me exactly what I am looking for, which is very fast improvement in several of my existing injuries. I use 30s rests, which is very hard. You can't do that with supersets if you are using correct rep tempo.

As for the PPP, I absolutely stand by what I said. At first, you should not be doing them in the same hand position as your strength sets. Move them forward a good bit or do XR push ups. PPP with wrists at your nipples is going to be pretty safe. Past that, at first, is probably not a good idea with the volume. As it is, just XR push ups may be extremely hard to complete the workouts with, but I don't think that PPP will be that much different when the hands are at the bottom of the chest. Remember that your first few sets will seem too easy. They are supposed to. If you're having trouble finishing set #3 you are not using low enough resistance.

At first I do think you will be better off without supersets. You need to have a very good idea of what you are doing before you try supersets, because if you screw up the timing you're going to be robbing yourself of a good bit of the training effect. It is very easy to do straight sets.

[Mikkel H.L.]

Hey Slizz, how would you program the 2 exercises for lowerback (arch-ups and RLL) Which days?

[Joshua Naterman]

I would do those as a single day, switching between them for which one you hit with GVT and which one is just 3 sets as the secondary exercise. The most important thing is to be able to perform the reps! If you can't go through all the sets with 10 reps, that's ok, you can adjust down to 10x4 reps if you need to (for example) but I will highly recommend that you find a way to make these easy enough to do 10x10 or close to it. Remember that this is not a strength-building routine, this is a mass-building routine. Will you get stronger? May be a little bit. Your endurance will go through the roof and so will your healing. This, along with the mass you build, will make it much easier to get strong if that ever becomes your goal.

If you're going to do this body part as GVT expect to be quite immobile for a few days afterwards. It WILL affect your other training a bit at first, but you'll get used to it fairly quickly. Just a heads up. This is probably best done on a lower body day, as it would take the place of deadlifting in a lifting GVT program, or a barbell squat. Those also require a lot of lower back work. If you want your legs to get bigger you'll need to include specific work, which will almost certainly be squats. I don't see much of anyone doing 10x10 SLS with <60s rest! If you can, fantastic, but most likely this is a job for a two leg squat.

Honestly, for almost everyone this is an approach that should be used on weak spots, and the WODs should be your main workouts.

I think the methods for this have been covered fairly well at this point, so at this point I am going to ask that personal experimentation take the place of most of the discussion here.

The one thing that is getting missed, I think, is that I am still doing the WODs every day. They are not a super massive workload when properly scaled, and leave plenty of time and energy for extra work, but for pretty much all of us the WODs are going to be the best place spend our time. I am using GVT as a recovery method, not as primary training. If that is your interest (to use GVT with BtGB exercises as primary training), that's totally ok, but that is not the primary purpose of this forum and I don't want this thread to distract people from the truth of the matter, which is that you will get what you are looking for from the WODs + good nutrition.

If you want to get bigger, the primary factor is going to be your post workout nutrition because the WODs really have quite a lot of potential for stimulating growth. There is quite a bit of volume work, as that is essentially what the "rounds" end up being. I will go right now and put a thread that should be stickied in the nutrition forum. I think you will find that this all by itself will greatly accelerate your gains in both strength and size. I will be covering the basics of the "anabolic window" and how to take advantage of that.